I hated to do it. Time for a new approach/ NEW PICS ADDED

[FL-Flintlock]

I taught art in highschool and found it difficult to get students to draw what they saw, rather than what they thought they saw.

Hey, that's me you're talking about!  Although I did it on purpose ... the ugly bowl of fruit was just so boring - much more interesting to draw a couple deer in the woods, pheasants in a field or the redhead chick three desks over.     

[J.D.]

Lurch,
That $80 piece of wood has served part of its purpose as a learning tool. It can still serve as a learning tool to practice inletting inlays, patchboxes, buttpieces, and for carving practice, so don't throw it away. Do keep it for a practice piece. However, I do suggest that you follow the advise you have been given to find a mentor, beg, borrow, or buy the Gunsmith of Grenville County even if you have to get it through inter-library loan and copy the pages on your printer, and buy a new piece of wood.

These folks do know what they are talking about. I suggest that you follow their advise.

God bless

[Birddog6]

ANY BETTER?   RICH

No.  

Rich.  I know it is hard to accept, but she's a dead puppy..............  Let it go......  Ya give it a $#*! of a try & I commend you for it, you stuck on that pony like glue, but it's time to let this one ride on.  

I suggest you drive over to Cain's Outdoors & Look at some of the longrifles there, talk to Ed Cain about them, etc. , study the lock panels, etc.  I also suggest you don't try to trim down the lock panels like you attempted, but use more of a plain lock panel & not as detailed, much easier & less chance of cutting too much away.    Cain's Outdoors  is very close to you & if it takes several trips, the more the better as every time you go you will see & learn something different you missed the last time. If you were not so far away I would let you lay a rifle in front of yours to study as you build it, thus you could SEE it as you go & get it in your mind.  But Cain's is close & maybe they will let you take some photos & study them a bit & etc.

I think you need to get another piece of wood, start with Mike Brooks tutorial & Stick To The Tutorial in the steps as he does it  with the determination you had on this rifle & you will get it done & it will work.  It will be a great improvement from this one, cause you have learned allot on this attempt.  Take Your Time............  and don't jump the ahead on things..........  Save this wood for practice on inletting, drilling, pinning, etc. The more you do, the better you will get at it.
You have more guts & determination than three people, and that is commendable.  But I think you need to slow down & put it to proper use.  

And whoever told you they don't want to help you because they are afraid you will take some of their business   , that selfish person is not much of a man, IMHO.  You don't want to learn from him anyway, no use learning a poor attitude when you already have a good one.  It would be very beneficial for you to find someone within driving range & spend an afternoon or two with them & help you foresee some events before they happen.  You would be amazed what a couple afternoons of just talking with a guy that knows what he is doing, can do for ya.  

Good luck.

Keith Lisle

PS:  If you want to borrow "The Gunsmiths of Grenville County" builders book or Chuck Dixon's builders book,  I will loan either to you for a while to help you understand some of the procedures & etc.  There is a world of good info in this book.

[LURCHWV@BJS]

Lurch, have you read any publications on building longrifles?  Have you read for example, Buchele's, Shumway's, and Alexander's Recreating the American Longrifle?  How about the Grunsmith of Grenville County?  Or even Dixon's the Art of Building ...Longrifle?  I'm taking a chance on sounding cruel, but if you have read any of these, I can't see how you're following the advice given in them.

 If you would have taken a cross section before I made the changes, except for a slight corner on the beavertails it would have looked like the figure page 95 of Chuck's book

 If you do the same thing as on page 101 it would have been the same except for the corner on the beavertail

 The forstock is the triangle shape as found on page 39 (no pic).

So yes I was following the advive from a book to the letter.  But according to the general consensus is wrong  Sorry been up for 24hrs and your question really ate at me.  Was going to ask if you ever read this book but decided against it.


Rich

[LURCHWV@BJS]

I'm going to finish it out, shoot it, be proud of it, kill something with it then probably replace the the stock. Either way I will be learning the whole time.  One thing no-one has said sometimes you just have to live with your mistakes take it on the chin and go on.


   Rich

[Rootsy]

Rich,

Please take no offense to any of the constructive criticism you've received.  Even if it may come across a bit abrasive.  You are, for the most part, receiving critique and assistance from individuals for whom, almost and not quite, isn't acceptable. 

I am quite far from being on par with any of the previous commentators but I am confident when I say that the rear of your lock area is toast.  Unless you were to possibly thin the bolster and move the lock closer to the barrel.  The main spring is likely already close to barrel steel.  The lock plate should not sit proud of the surface.

My visualization of the area is that of an island in the middle of a river.  The river, being the neck, is split by the lock panel and flows around each side (top and bottom) in a harmonious radial sweeping manner on one side toward the trigger plate and on the top toward the tang.  It is all complex geometry.   The cross section you are mentioning is too far forward and encompasses the full width of the panels.  It does not address the transition as the lock panel comes to a point or beaver tail and and the resultant transition into the neck of the areas above and below.

The Gunsmith of Grenville Co. has a nice isometric style diagram or two that utilizes some flow lines to represent the shape, flow and direction of this and other areas.   

[Mike Brooks]

Pretty amazing. You come here and ask for help and if you don't like what you hear you tell the best in the business to shove it and stumble on in the wrong direction. You'll be getting no more help from me kid.

[LURCHWV@BJS]

Mike ,

 I'm not telling anybody to stick anything. I in my honest opinion thought I was following the advice given to me about Chuck's book to the letter. And now I find out it's wrong.  I'm still trying to figure out what the H--- just happened. Do this but not completely ,read this but don't follow it. try your best , you screwed it up ...Quit  I have several people saying several different things and I have to just sit back and take the bashing and not defend what I did or why.  I had exactly what I was precieved by reading a book. It was wrong.  I was given advice followed it, that was wrong  Who is the ultimate person I should be listening to ...


 I guess I just need to take a break from here try to figure out what I 'm doing. I 'm man enough to apologize Mike  Please forgive me...

 Rich

[Dphariss]

A beveled lock should be inlet to the level.

Everyone makes mistakes. A couple of years ago I ruined a piece of nice curly hard maple. Its carving practice now. I can try out gouges and such and then file it off as necessary.
Basically I looked at it said @&%%$$ and went to work on another piece of wood.
I have destroyed the stocks on 3 of my early guns back 20 odd years ago. Cut em up and burnt them.
So don't feel like the Lone Ranger here.
If you live in the east there is access to far more longrifle related material than there is in the west so do some traveling and looking and learning. Get some guns in your hands and see how they really look and feel. It can be intimidating looking at the work of someone who is really good.
I was bumbling along making a few ML guns and I moved to a town with this guy


Can you spell deflated and perhaps intimidated? You take a gun down to his shop and he says "I've seen worse"     But everytime we seriously talk guns I learn something from him. He is simply amazing.

If you want to do this you can. If you want to finish the rifle you have and shoot it go for it. You can buy more parts and start another or restock what you have. Its really up the you in the final determination.
I am reasonably proficient in making things but I spent a lot of time and hair pulling making this single set trigger. Scrapped a lot of parts. But it had to be RIGHT. Its going into a pistol for a VERY discriminating hunter/shooter/collector. It had to work right every time and be consistent.


But I liked the thing so well that I made one for my personal rifle. It a lot less time and no hair pulling or head banging.


It used to take a 13-14 year old 3-5 years to become a gunstocker and he had someone TEACHING him. Don't expect to do a sophisticated job first time out. Though some people seem to do it.


Dan

[Ken G]

Well said Dan.
I have a couple of "beyond repair" stocks in the corner myself.  They were learning experiences and represent mistakes I hope to never make again. 
Ken

[Artificer]

Rich,

I admire your determination and part of being any kind of a good gun worker is having the tenacity to stare down a Missouri mule while you learn the skills you want while making and fixing mistakes.  Grin. 

Though it has been almost 37 years since I began my OJT (On the Job Training or "Apprenticeship" Program) to become a Rifle Team Equipment Repairman (National Match Armorer) I have never forgotten how I had to sweat blood to learn to work metal and especially in the pistol section.  I had had almost no training in working metal before I began my OJT period, so I was behind the eight ball from the start.  The one thing that saved my hide was I would take constructive criticism by anyone who would teach me something or give me info I needed. 

I will never forget one Gunnery Sergeant who really knew detailed things on building bolt action rifles.  The first time I went up to ask him a question, he slammed his tool box lid shut and rolled off an almost amazing string of profanities about how dumb a question it was and many other things, while he grabbed his coffee cup and walked over to the coffee urn.  I was dumbfounded, but stood there because he hadn't refused to give me help.  When he came back to his bench, he showed me what I wanted to know and more AND in a very civil and instructive tone.  OK, so I went through the same thing on some other occasions until another OJT in the program had a question I couldn't answer.  I told him we needed to go to that Gunny.  I WARNED him about the reaction the Gunny would do and the other OJT was dumbfounded, still the same.   As the Gunny was growling and stomping off, I told the other OJT that the Gunny did that to ensure we REALLY wanted the instruction and wasn't wasting his time.  The Gunny looked up the the coffee pot and had just a small wry grin on his face and then came back and gave us the info.  He never again pulled the cussing and stuff when I went to ask a question.  Some of the guys I learned the most from did similar things when I went to ask questions.  Years later when I became the Instructor of OJT’s, I didn’t do it that way, though I would come down hard on someone who wasn’t paying attention. 

We are blessed on this forum with some of the most knowledgeable people in the business who are willing to share their experience and knowledge with us.  Mike Brooks for example not only took the time (and therefore the money he would have made from doing other things) to answer questions here, but he pays for putting up tutorials on line.  These kinds of things are examples of the extreme generosity of the folks who answer many of the questions here.  When these folks suggest you are beating a dead horse, I’d suggest it’s time to quit beating the cadaver.  Grin.  I used to tell my OJT’s that you didn’t stand upright and run around the yard until you first learned to crawl.

 I know $ 80.00 is nothing to sneeze at even at my stage of life, but you most likely have already gotten more than your $ 80.00 out of that stock and as others have mentioned, you can still use it to practice other things.  These folks also realize what it’s like to have to scrap something along the way as you learn things and it can get costly.  They all have already been in the position you find yourself now.  They also know there are just some things you can’t fix and be satisfactory with 3 or more times the labor of starting over.  They are trying to save you the futility they most likely have run into on more than one occasion. 

While you are saving up for another piece of wood, may I suggest you practice some inletting of other parts and shaping or carving on that stock?   Please understand everyone here wishes you well in your endeavors and are trying to pass on their knowledge.  Personally, I am extremely grateful for it.

Gus

[Robby]

Lurch, If you are bound and determined to save what you have done so far, there may be some things you can do. I can only go by the pictures I see, so I don't know the extent your problem. The first thing I would do is take a file and give a better definition to the bevel on the lock plate, evaluate weather some judicious filing on the lock bolster might bring it in enough to give me something to work with. Another thing i would consider in relation with filing the lock bolster, is carefully planing down the lock panel, gluing on a "Dutchman", and re-inletting the lock, if done carefully, you can incorporate the glue line into a moulding that helps define the lock panel. Good luck!
Robby

[rich pierce]

Lurch, building a first gun from a blank is not going to work 95% of the time for anyone. Worse is trying to do it from a book and online advice without any hands-on guidance at all.  This is why there was shop class in school. You need hands on guidance.  It's not like making pancakes, where if you screw up, it cost a dollar, throw it out and start over.  The main problem you're experiencing is that you think you can build a rifle with no prior experience, from a book and online guidance from a few pictures you provide.  It's not going to work and if you start over and do things the same, that's not going to work either.  Several people here have told you to go to Mike Brooks' tutorial.  If you want to know which guide to use, use that one.  It is free and it covers every step in a stepwise fashion.  You get good photos to study.  But until you develop great skills with hand tools and an eye for what you are trying to accomplish in shaping wood, you will not do good work.  And you will not know you are not doing good work until the mistakes are made and it will take 3x the effort to fix them, because you do not have a teacher to grade and guide you.  I repeat- there are very few individuals who can build a decent gun from a blank first try from books, online advice and online tutorials.  And there are a good many folks who want to be able to build good rifles or engrave well, carve well, forge well, make a good bag or powder horn) but can't, even in a class with world class teachers.

Every aspiring builder should first assemble a kit like the Lyman GPR, learning final fitting and how things work together and finishing of wood and metal.  Then move to a very plain gun like a trade gun or musket.  Then finally to a high quality kit or blank-built rifle if they have shown themselves to be well above average.

[LURCHWV@BJS]

  Gus,

  Wow... those last three paragraphs... WOW...  I PRAY MR Brooks see's that.

  Never looked at it that way..... I wish I could see him in person with hat in hand and truly humbly ask  forgiveness.  If this is the same man who's two rifles where on Muzzle Blasts awhile back, He's always been the reason for not taking "You CAN't Do it like that"" as a final answer.  Anyone who does work that exquisit had to be as stubbourn as a Blue Nosed Missouri Mule to get that good .  My Dad alway's said I lacked Persistance.  So I worked on it Iguess to the point of being Anaul (Anal,Buttheadedish) about it.  Too many people just roll over when the going get tough. I don't want to be that person...again.  I know I've irratated some people along the way,  I AM SOOOOO  SORRY.  PLEEEEASE FORGIVE ME.


     RICH

[Mike Brooks]

Hey, don't worry about how I feel, no big deal there. I looked back on your postings on this gun project. If you were having problems with just one small area it would be no big deal, just about anything can be fixed. But, in my journey back on your project just about every area has some real serious problems, most of which can't be fixed enough to be presentable. The job on your Ram prod pipes on the other hand was excellent.
 At this point you have so many un fixable boondoggles on this gun it's time to start over. Believe me, you won't want to be haunted for the rest of your life by this Dr. Frankenstein's creation by finishing it. Time to dig a hole and bury this creation and build a new one. Go with a good kit next time, you'll be able to study the architecture to guide you on a future build from a blank.

[billd]

Rich,   You don't need to spend $80. on a blank.  Call Wayne or Daniel or anyone who sells blanks. They always have some seconds lying around.  I was at Dunlaps a few months ago and got a beautiful piece for $50, hard and lots of curl.  So it has a few worm holes in it. Just adds character. Last week I was at Fred Miller's. He gave me a piece for free. It had a knot in front of the wrist that may or may not come out. He didn't want to put the time into it and not be able to sell it if the knot gets larger. Said he was getting tiered of tripping over it.

Your building your first gun. You can save a few bucks and still have a nice piece.  Get this one pre shaped so you have some where to start.

Bill

[Ken G]

Rich,
I really think you would be better off getting a pre-shaped stock for a recovery effort and NOT working from a blank until you have several builds under your belt OR you have an experienced builder that can look at what you have done on at least a weekly basis.  Ask the stock vendor for a "second" as had been suggested.  You can learn a lot from using a properly shaped stock to begin with.  Keep the stock you have now for comparison and learn from the differences.
 
IMHO - Learning to build a rifle by books or internet is best taken in small steps.  The first step is getting the basic contruction techniques down using a pre-shaped stock.  The last step will be completely laying things out, inletting the barrel, and drilling a ramrod hole.  

One more thing just to let you know you aren't in a place a lot of us haven't been before........Years ago I got so pee'od about some advice I was given here I didn't post on this board for a long time (yes, different post name).  I came back because I realized the advice given was dead on right even though it hurt my feelings.  If I had it all to do over again I wish more guys would have been critical of my efforts.  It would have shortened the learning curve.  BTW, I have 2 FUBAR stocks in the corner.  I consider them part of my learning dues.  

Cheers,
Ken

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Lurch,

I have never built a gun and hope to soon.  I admire your courage and honesty for sharing it here, and I am learning a lot from it.  I am not brave enought to start from a blank.  I have always enjoyed Mike Brook's tutorial he posted I have had it bookmarked for sometime and hope to go the route of getting a blank with the barrel inlet and maybe some shaping done. 

Good luck with your project and keep sharing for my benefit if nothing else.

Coryjoe

[Berks Liberty]

Rich,

I know how you feel.  I built my first rifle at 16, a T/C hawken kit.  In 2002 I built another rifle after a Bonewitz which was a precarve stock.  When I was working on my Bonewitz style I used Dixon's book and Shumway's book and they got me to the end of the build and I killed a deer the first season out. My dream is to build rifles as good as the masters here so I took the words of Allen Martin and that was to research, research, handle original rifles, handle more original rifles, study each and every detail of the rifle and study, ask a lot of questions, and research some more.  He stated as some here will tell you that getting your hands on the originals is the best way to understand the true feel and architecture.  Its very hard to build from a diagram or even a really good color photo.  The easiest thing for me was to pick a school and try and learn everything about the rifles that came from that school.  I've been very lucky to cross paths with some very nice original rifles.  Some I could touch, others I had to look through glass at.  I took notes on the depth of inletting of the lock, took every picture known to man on every metal piece that was inletted into the wood from every angle you can think of.  My third rifle I finished this last spring and even through I did all of that research I still had to fix some minor issues one of them was the lines around the lock.  It was Don Getz and Acer that helped me here and gave me some advice.  Your gut is the check station here.  If you look at the lines or area you are working on and your gut and eyes say Hmmmm.  Stop and look it over.  Sometimes I had to look at it for hours, put my tools down and go look at my photos and books.  Someone might have said this but you can take a little wood away with out too much problem but you can never put it back.  Even after my third build there is some things I need to improve on but it is far, far, far better looking than my second precarve build.  I took a chance and built my third rifle from a blank.  But Allen Martin told me that you don't get better unless you build, build, and build.  But do you homework first.  Good luck and keep at it, you can always restock it down the road or hang it up after you build another rifle and look back at your progress.  Never give up!  And keep on learning.  I bet there are a lot of folks here that are masters but they can also tell you they are always learning.  Good Luck!

Jason

[LURCHWV@BJS]

Not admitting defeat.  Please don't get mad.  Until such a time I can get a new Stock I will continue with this stock if only to learn how to correct mistakes.  I still need to learn more about every aspect of building. Am I wrong for choosing to do this?  I still have lots of practice to do on inletting.  I tried something different last nyt.  I wanted to see if I could make a patchbox. I did, It's UGLY but it works.  I will be getting a precarve as soon as funds will allow.  I've been experimenting with a stain I would like to try out, it will go on this FrankenStein I have created just to see how it will look.

  I will be taking a small class soon. I consider myself a good example of what not to do.

   On midnights no tyme for Frankie.  Thanx for the name  Mike

     Rich

[Tom Currie]

Rich, Congrats on this post. I've always hoped I would make a post with this much reaction  

I 've attached 2 pics of my first build only using Dixon's book. I think you will find them similair to yours. Very rounded without much definition.  I think that top picture you have shown of Dixon's book it a bit misleading for beginning builders. Specifically the flat from the edge of the barrell tang to the lock mortice should be flat, not sort of rounded or wavy. Look how rounded over mine is the photos.

I got much better after seeing RCA#1 for it's detail.

That being said she's my first gun and my hunter. Maybe I'm a softie but I have an attachment to that gun, I put a lot of time in on it. People who dont know any different think it looks great, but it's not going antwhere's near Dixons.

Finish your first build and enjoy it for what it is. Your first build. It wont be the last.

[R.W.D.]

Hey Ken,

I have a whole rifle sitting in the corner that reminds me of several things not to do again.  Shoots good just looks like hammered h---.  First builds tend to look that way.   One of these days I will restock it and make it into a poor-boy barn gun.  First I need to try to salvage a DGW kit rifle that belongs to an in-law.  I had this thing for about a year.   Ever time I start to work on it I want to cry.   Needs to be restocked and just built anew.

Ross

[Acer Saccharum]

I appreciate all you guys chiming in.

I wish I had my first gun still. I had no idea what I was doing. In the picture below, you can see the heavy forestock and the tiny buttstock. I had traced it off a Win. Saddle Ring Carbine.

Here it is, and me, at 16. Proud as a peacock. I am guessing this would be 1970.

[Roger Fisher]

Rich: Put it all in to perspective.  First off your still a kid and have plenty of time to pick up the skills needed to build an acceptable rifle.  Do not rush, do not work late and never ever have your lady love 'help'!! 

We all need to accept our skill levels; but should of course try to improve them.

My first effort is hidden well back in the attic!

I stay with plain rifles since (at least in my case) I'm too long in the tooth to learn carving and engraving, both of which are an art in themselves.

I happen to have an original that has many flaws and could be used as an example of what not to do.  So, accept the fact that many old time builders were not 'artists' either.

So, rather than get tooo windy admire the artists in this game and accept the fact that it takes years and years to become truly adept at building these rifles we love so dearly.  Enjoy the ride; but please accept the fact that we can't all be expert right out of the gate

[Seven]

Lurch, it sounds like you're gong to go with this stock for a bit more.  Maybe what you can do is first figure out what is wrong with each area.   Mr. Brooks said that he could see problems in all areas shown (except the pipes).  Figure out what those problems are first.  Don't take any more wood away.  If you can figure out what the problems are then next time you'll be all the wiser.  And don't forget to figure out what you did right with those pipes too!  Personally I've never done well with Dixon's book, I need more detail.  I do use "Gunsmith of Grenville..." a lot, as well as RCA 1 & 2 for reference and measurements.  And I search this forum at least once a week when I'm in the middle of a build, sometimes once a day. 
-Chad