Author Topic: Flash hole location  (Read 14179 times)

Rootsy

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Flash hole location
« on: September 21, 2010, 03:51:06 PM »
After shooting and reviewing photos of this rifle yesterday afternoon I don't think it is nearly as bad as I had originally made it out to be.  Yet the delay really bothers me.  Compared to how quickly some others I've seen are this one seems like it takes forever to light the main charge.   It has a standard screw in vent liner, unmodified.  I have a Jim Chambers White Lightning but at 5/16 it'll break into the oblique flat.  My best course of action to improve ignition?  BTW I'm priming with 3Fg GOEX, same as I'm using for my main charge.  Charge level with top of the waterproof feature, maybe I am "overcharging" it. 


g.pennell

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2010, 04:28:58 PM »
Try a MUCH smaller priming charge...my Chambers early Ketland is very fast with about 1/3 of a pan of powder...and I prime it with the same 2F that I use in the main charge.

Might want to pull the vent liner and just make sure there's no burrs on either the threads or the liner itself, that might be interfering with your flash.

Greg

keweenaw

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2010, 04:33:42 PM »
I'll agree with Greg's post.  You touch hole is a touch, about 1/2 diameter, high but there's not much you can do about that.  If the liner is coned appropriately inside you should see granules of powder from your charge almost out to the outside surface.

Tom











Offline T*O*F

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2010, 04:35:59 PM »
You might also take a countersink to your touch hole.  That would isolate the flame front from the screwdriver slot and help direct it into the hole.  With a liner that is filed flush, the hole is at the top.  With this type of liner, your hole is recessed in the slot.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2010, 04:53:11 PM »
I'd unbreech and look at things inside to make sure the liner isn't protruding into the bore.  As said above, if you can see granules of powder through the touchhole, she should be good to go.  A touchhole 1 hole diameter (.062") high, fore, or aft is not usually going to delay ignition.  If you plugged the touchhole and held onto the side of the pan when you fire the primed lock, the flash would burn your hand all over.  If you had powder stuck on your hand anywhere, it would light.  My point being that 1/16" off-center is not likely your ignition problem.

Perception and reality in ignition are not always in tune with each other.  I've had many folks tell me their flinter is as fast as a percussion gun.  No way.  I also find that ignition is mysterious still, despite the good work done by many including Pletch on the subject, where everything is controlled.  I have a straight drilled touchhole in a fat walled barrel (D weight, .58) that shoots fine for me.  I have no idea how fast or slow it is, but I shoot it well and am not disturbed by anything that feels like a delay.  I also have internally coned touchholes that are consistent and conducive to good shooting, and am now trying the internal coning device.  Many mysteries.
Andover, Vermont

Rootsy

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2010, 05:14:17 PM »
Thank you for the suggestions leading me down the path of truth.  I will take some time and investigate and apply the advice received.   I am confident that my condition shall improve.

To answer a few questions though... I drilled, tapped and installed vent liner with the breech plug removed.  The liner is not shrouded by the breech plug  and intersects, fully, the rifling and no thread.  The liner does not protude into the bore at all as I checked that once it was seated.  I de-burred the bore where drill and tap passed through the wall into it, before installing the liner.


Offline Dphariss

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2010, 05:36:46 PM »
After shooting and reviewing photos of this rifle yesterday afternoon I don't think it is nearly as bad as I had originally made it out to be.  Yet the delay really bothers me.  Compared to how quickly some others I've seen are this one seems like it takes forever to light the main charge.   It has a standard screw in vent liner, unmodified.  I have a Jim Chambers White Lightning but at 5/16 it'll break into the oblique flat.  My best course of action to improve ignition?  BTW I'm priming with 3Fg GOEX, same as I'm using for my main charge.  Charge level with top of the waterproof feature, maybe I am "overcharging" it. 



First off have you shot flint guns much? Its hard to judge a flintgun if you have limited experience.
Second have you actually fired the ones that you have seen that are faster? Watching guns being fired is often not the same as shooting them when judging speed.

You cannot overcharge the pan. This is silliness. More is always better. More heat, better ignition. Under charging is a chronic cause of flashes in the pan.

3f will work OK but is somewhat slower than 4f or Null B Swiss. It is harder to light, it takes longer to generate heat. If you load without powder its far more difficult to get through the vent to shoot the ball out than the finer powder. Priming with the main horn is a PITA too. So I have always used 4 f or lately NullB which is even finer. If the priming horn runs out then I use the main horn.

Flintlocks are not as fast as percussions unless the percussion is REALLY screwed up. Anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.
The vent you have would make a good boat anchor if it were larger. As a vent it stinks. Not from the speed angle but because then tend to eventually leak and gas cut past the threads. Once its modified, if needed, I would seal it with low strength loctite.
A removable vent is just more silliness. There is no valid reason for it.
Since its removable pull it out and check to see how long the actual vent is. If its more than .030 from the pan side of the vent to the counterbore then carefully bore it to make the "web" .020-.030 with a drill of at least .100". Open the vent to .062 (1/16) if its under 1/16".
This shows the length of the actual vent this will always put the main charge within .020 or so of the priming.


If this does not solve the problem its someplace else other than the vent. This is a 12x32 thread vent.
The screw slot may cause some ignition problems being a slight fouling trap but its not likely to be a major concern and would not concern myself with it other than brushing if unexplained flashes in the pan crop up.

If you *really* don't like it if you have a friend with a small lathe make a copy of the WL with the 1/4x28 thread from a 5/16 stainless steel bolt from the hardware store. Make it and install as the WL is made (the internal cone can be simply drilled with a 1/8" bit may be microscopically slower but its easier than making a cutter for the cone and will leave a pretty good wall thickness). Install screwed against a slight counter sink in the barrel. Just cut a matching angle on the liner when its made.
I would try the lock with the flint right side up as well.

Dan
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Birddog6

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2010, 06:17:20 PM »
I can't tell for sure, but that appears to be a SS or steel vent liner.  Myself, I would take it out & get a Ampco bronze alloy vent liner, cone it on the inside a tad & cone it slightly on the outside. Drill the hole to .062 & try it. If that don't help go to  .070 & that should fix it. I have had real good luck with those Ampco liners & you can get thousands of shots from it with normal charges.

On those real shallow pans I fill them 3/4 to full as it don't hold much. On a deep pan I fill them 1/2 full.  But I use the least amount that works well for that lock.

Load it, run a vent pick in the vent hole to insure it is not blocked with a piece of fouling, remove the vent pick & try it.

Keith Lisle

Offline Jerry V Lape

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2010, 06:38:14 PM »
Another item which can slow or even stop ignition is a poor flint that doesn't give you a good shower of sparks.  Takes longer to start a fire from just a couple sparks that from a whole bunch of sparks.  The flint can be too soft or it can just be dull.  The one in the photo is dull. 

The white lightening liner comes in three sizes.  Do you know whether the smallest size might work with the current liner hole. 

Are you wiping between loads?  When I started shooting flintlocks my desire to clean the bore between shots resulted in lots of misfires or slow fires until I figured out the wiping patch only needed to be damp, not wet.  I was pushing wet sludge to the bottom resulting in the fire not finding much dry powder. 

Rootsy

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2010, 06:41:24 PM »
We're cooking with gas... err... Charcoal...

To answer a couple of more things... 1)  My flintlock usage is limited.  As a teenager I put some time on one that was of a Hawken design.  As an adult this is my first foray.  The engineer in me becomes over critical... I haven't stayed at a Holiday Inn in a while....

The liner is whatever came with the whole mess of original parts I received from Pecatonica.   It has an expanded chamber on the back side.  How long the actual vent hole is I am not sure.  I have it installed with Loctite 242 at the moment (blue).  

How often do you pick the vent?  Every shot?  Every other?  Only when req'd?

Not sure I've seen an AMPCO bronze liner... I'm going to have to go in search of now.  

One thing I have not mentioned is that 30 feet from my office there's about 10,000 sq feet of machine shop... Think the guys are a bit slow at the moment too... May have to make a quick drawing... Should only cost me an adult beverage or 12...

Rootsy

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2010, 06:46:15 PM »
The one in the photo is dull. 

It was also mentioned previously that I need to orient it right side up.  I assume meaning, chamfer down...

These are the black english flints from ToTW. 

Offline Ryan McNabb

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2010, 07:27:23 PM »
The above discussion is why I never, ever put a vent liner in a rifle.  I just drill a 5/64 hole through the barrel and have always gotten fast, trouble free ignition.  If the vent hole ever shoots out so big that it's an issue, it can be easily re-lined but it will take years and years to get to that point.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2010, 07:34:34 PM »
The Chambers liner might be different thread size than your present linner, some thing to check out if you should want to change linners.   Gary

Birddog6

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2010, 08:43:10 PM »
[quote ]

The liner is whatever came with the whole mess of original parts I received from Pecatonica.   It has an expanded chamber on the back side.  How long the actual vent hole is I am not sure.  I have it installed with Loctite 242 at the moment (blue).  

How often do you pick the vent?  Every shot?  Every other?  Only when req'd?

Not sure I've seen an AMPCO bronze liner... I'm going to have to go in search of now.  

[/quote]

I would not put Locktite on one, simply because you have to deal with it if you want the vent liner out. I put a dab of Antisieze in the vent liner hole & snug the vent liner in & that is it. Don't over tighten it, you will just mess up the slot in the vent liner & it serves no purpose to tighten the bejesus out of it all you will do is stretch the threads or tear out the slot..

As for the Ampco vent liner, look at TOW or MBS.

I run a vent pick in the hole Every time I load it. And I run it into the main charge, not just the front of the hole.  Then I know I have no obstruction in the vent hole between it & the main charge.

Most likely the vent liner is a 1/4 - 28 thread, so a Chambers vent liner is not an option unless you go to a oversized one like a 5/16 one.  In your case that will put the vent liner up off the flat & that is not good either, so stay with what you have. Rethreading a 1/4 - 28 thread to a 1/4 - 32 is not an option either.So  I would try to go with what you have & get it to work.

Keith Lisle

« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 08:45:35 PM by Birddog6 »

Rootsy

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2010, 08:55:33 PM »
AMPCO bronze vent liners being turned as I type this.  Yes 1/4 - 28 UNF.  ToTW is out of em... I'm impatient  ;D

Left enough mat'l on each end to hand fit.  Seating on an ISO c-sink (90 degree). 




Offline Dphariss

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2010, 04:18:20 AM »
AMPCO bronze vent liners being turned as I type this.  Yes 1/4 - 28 UNF.  ToTW is out of em... I'm impatient  ;D

Left enough mat'l on each end to hand fit.  Seating on an ISO c-sink (90 degree). 





I would not think the ampco is worth the wait.
You can try other suppliers. Log Cabin, Tip Curtis, Dixons.

Dan
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Birddog6

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2010, 04:59:30 PM »
Important it be coned on the Inside,  and a slight come on the outside. When I cone the outside I have about 1/2 of the slot left. About .025 straight wall remaining in the vent liner. Never have had an issue getting one of these vent liners out, but again, I don't tighten the bejesus out of them either. I just snug them down lightly & they have always been fine.

Nice that you have the machinery to make something that small that quickly.  By the time I got set up to do it, I would have forgotten what I was making.....   :-[ :D

Keith Lisle

Rootsy

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2010, 06:14:47 PM »
Replaced with the AMPCO piece last night.  Cut the threaded portion to length, chased the thread in the barrel and put her in with a bit of never-sieze and snugged it up.  Cut the drive off and filed it flat.  Has a .063 hole leading to a 0.150 chamber that is coned at 118 degrees on the transition from flash hole to chamber (drill bit).  The land is a bit narrower than I wish.  Maybe .01 so I am unable to cone the outside. 

Poured some powder down the barrel and stuffed some patches on top and trickled a bit of powder in the pan (with the flint bevel down)... Sent the patches out of the barrel no noticable delay between flint strike and boom.  Meaning there was no big poof in your field of vision and a waiting period for the main charge to fire.  At least not one I could count by any means. 

I'll work on a couple of replacements with shorter chambers so I achieve more land and I can fit that distance.

Thank you for all of the help, insight and education.

northmn

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2010, 06:44:58 PM »
Through experience I can agree with Dpharsis on vent liners.  The Chambers White Lightening is popular but is a different thread than the rest of the world at 1-33 I think.  You have to buy a special tap to install them which is not a standard one like the 1/4 X 28.  I just make my own now.  Some ahve been using a #50 drill which is .070 for a touch hole.  As to liners being faster and less trouble than a straight hole.  I tried just a straight drilled hole at 5/16 and replaced it with a liner.  Liners are faster as they bring the powder closer to the pan and use a smaller touch hole which aids in velocity.  When I drilled out my 54 from .0625 to .070 I did get a small velocity reduction over the chronograh of something like 50-70 fps.

DP 

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2010, 08:02:54 PM »
Then again you can use one of Tom Snyder's little tools and cone the inside of the touch hole in the barrel and not need a liner!! :o ;D ;D

 
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Offline Hawken62_flint

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2010, 03:23:26 PM »
Well, don't know for sure what the whole problem is--I have only been shooting black powder guns since 1981, and only flinters for the last 15 years.  I agree with some of what is said, and so here is my take on your situation.  From my limited knowledge, your touch hole is definitely too high.  I have some that are low in the pan and some that are pretty near perfect set center/top of pan.  These with the hole centered/top of the pan get the best ignition, and they are within a millisecond or two of being as fast as a percussion.  I have found that you can get too much powder in the pan if the hole is not centered/top of the pan.  If you touch hole sets low in the pan, and you fill the pan level full, the powder will have to burn down to the level of the touch hole before igniting the main charge, giving you the "ole whoosh bang", and not a quick ignition.  Therefore, I have found over the past 15 years that each of my rifles likes a different amount of powder in the pan to get the quickest ignition.  Also, I would prime with 4 or 5F or 7F if you can get it.  I have been using 7F for the past 5 or 6 years and it is amazingly quick.  In your case, I would cram as much powder in the pan as you can get.  Don't know if this helps or if others will disagree, but this has been my experience over time.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2010, 04:55:39 PM »
Well, don't know for sure what the whole problem is--I have only been shooting black powder guns since 1981, and only flinters for the last 15 years.  I agree with some of what is said, and so here is my take on your situation.  From my limited knowledge, your touch hole is definitely too high.  I have some that are low in the pan and some that are pretty near perfect set center/top of pan.  These with the hole centered/top of the pan get the best ignition, and they are within a millisecond or two of being as fast as a percussion.  I have found that you can get too much powder in the pan if the hole is not centered/top of the pan.  If you touch hole sets low in the pan, and you fill the pan level full, the powder will have to burn down to the level of the touch hole before igniting the main charge, giving you the "ole whoosh bang", and not a quick ignition.  Therefore, I have found over the past 15 years that each of my rifles likes a different amount of powder in the pan to get the quickest ignition.  Also, I would prime with 4 or 5F or 7F if you can get it.  I have been using 7F for the past 5 or 6 years and it is amazingly quick.  In your case, I would cram as much powder in the pan as you can get.  Don't know if this helps or if others will disagree, but this has been my experience over time.

Where do you get 7f?? or even 5 F?? Do they sell it at Friendship... I thought it was only sold wholesale to fireworks manufacturers?

 Poorboy,...I suggest that you read the research report at http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/part-6-high-and-low-vent-experiments.php as well as several more articles on the site...... loook at what the data shows. :o :o ;D.... I find there is enough mystery in flintlocks to keep us guessing and learning for a long time.....

I encourage you to look over Larry's site ..it is  a fun place to learn a lot.
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Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2010, 05:58:27 PM »
Replaced with the AMPCO piece last night.  Cut the threaded portion to length, chased the thread in the barrel and put her in with a bit of never-sieze and snugged it up.  Cut the drive off and filed it flat.  Has a .063 hole leading to a 0.150 chamber that is coned at 118 degrees on the transition from flash hole to chamber (drill bit).  The land is a bit narrower than I wish.  Maybe .01 so I am unable to cone the outside. 

Poured some powder down the barrel and stuffed some patches on top and trickled a bit of powder in the pan (with the flint bevel down)... Sent the patches out of the barrel no noticable delay between flint strike and boom.  Meaning there was no big poof in your field of vision and a waiting period for the main charge to fire.  At least not one I could count by any means. 

I'll work on a couple of replacements with shorter chambers so I achieve more land and I can fit that distance.

Thank you for all of the help, insight and education.

I have never seen any benefit to the external cone and this may cause more problems with fouling in a long string of shots.
My swivel breech has one flat and one external cone and honestly I can't see any difference.  But the externl cone does foul around the vent and its caused or seems to cause more flashes in the pan.
The British vent liners are invariably flat since this allows the pan cover (or vent wiper if so equipped) to clean the outside of the vent as it is closed.


Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2010, 06:03:17 PM »
Well, don't know for sure what the whole problem is--I have only been shooting black powder guns since 1981, and only flinters for the last 15 years.  I agree with some of what is said, and so here is my take on your situation.  From my limited knowledge, your touch hole is definitely too high.  I have some that are low in the pan and some that are pretty near perfect set center/top of pan.  These with the hole centered/top of the pan get the best ignition, and they are within a millisecond or two of being as fast as a percussion.  I have found that you can get too much powder in the pan if the hole is not centered/top of the pan.  If you touch hole sets low in the pan, and you fill the pan level full, the powder will have to burn down to the level of the touch hole before igniting the main charge, giving you the "ole whoosh bang", and not a quick ignition.  Therefore, I have found over the past 15 years that each of my rifles likes a different amount of powder in the pan to get the quickest ignition.  Also, I would prime with 4 or 5F or 7F if you can get it.  I have been using 7F for the past 5 or 6 years and it is amazingly quick.  In your case, I would cram as much powder in the pan as you can get.  Don't know if this helps or if others will disagree, but this has been my experience over time.

Where do you get 7f?? or even 5 F?? Do they sell it at Friendship... I thought it was only sold wholesale to fireworks manufacturers?

 Poorboy,...I suggest that you read the research report at http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/part-6-high-and-low-vent-experiments.php as well as several more articles on the site...... loook at what the data shows. :o :o ;D.... I find there is enough mystery in flintlocks to keep us guessing and learning for a long time.....

I encourage you to look over Larry's site ..it is  a fun place to learn a lot.

Larry's work has been invaluable.

If you are interested in finer powder I would use Swiss Null B its finer than 4f and is likely 6F I suppose (?)

Fireworks powder is not the same as propellant grade powder and I would not bother with it.

Dann
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Offline Hawken62_flint

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Re: Flash hole location
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2010, 07:25:32 PM »
Quote from Dr Boone today

Where do you get 7f?? or even 5 F?? Do they sell it at Friendship... I thought it was only sold wholesale to fireworks manufacturers?

 Poorboy,...I suggest that you read the research report at http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/part-6-high-and-low-vent-experiments.php as well as several more articles on the site...... loook at what the data shows.   .... I find there is enough mystery in flintlocks to keep us guessing and learning for a long time.....

I encourage you to look over Larry's site ..it is  a fun place to learn a lot.

Thanks for the info.  I am only going on my own evaluations of rifles that I own and shoot regularly, and that is all I based my post on.  As for the 7F powder, you can buy it at Cain's Outdoors in Boaz, WV (online www.cainsoutdoor.com).  It is unglazed, but I have hunted in the snow and rain using it with no problems.  Just keep it dry!  Cain's will ship, but you have to pay HAZMAT, so best to get several people to order and only pay 1 fee.  The last 5F I had was Elephant, and I did not like the way it ignited and it is no longer imported or so I have been told.  And Dr Boone, you are correct in that flintlocks are a learning experience and just when you think you have them figured out, they throw you for a loop.