Interesting piece on Ebay, Virginia gun?

[Bill of the 45th]

Just noticed this on Ebay, and thought it might be a good study piece for someone.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-KENTUCKY-RIFLE-STOCK-VIRGINIA-MUZZLELOADER-1800-/330475329937?pt=Vintage_Hunting&hash=item4cf1dd5991#ht_500wt_1154

Bill

[Ryan McNabb]

I was gonna say it screams southwest Virginia and then he kindly included the book section showing the probable maker.

What an incredible rifle - Jacob Shaffer (attributed) obviously had a clientelle that could support some amazing art.  And it's also interesting that the rifle in the book is .56 caliber.  Wouldn't have thought it to be so large.  Of course it might have been freshened out many times.

What a tour de force of gunmaking.  Darn shame it's just a butt stock.

[Mike Brooks]

Darn shame it's just a butt stock.

I guarantee you that in a couple years that buttstock will show up fully restored with lock, barrel and forestock.

[JTR]

A $500 starting bid, and then reserve not met,,,, Good Luck!
I'd give him maybe a hundred for it,,,,, so I'd have some money left for the,,, lock,,, barrel and forestock!! 

John 

[Ryan McNabb]

Darn shame it's just a butt stock.

I guarantee you that in a couple years that buttstock will show up fully restored with lock, barrel and forestock.

Ain't that the truth.   

And I think the stock is worth $500.  I'd pay a fair bit just to be able to disassemble and photograph it.  Those triggers are awesome, and I'd love to take a casting off of that trigger guard. 

[Stophel]

Darn shame it's just a butt stock.

I guarantee you that in a couple years that buttstock will show up fully restored with lock, barrel and forestock.

And it will be "all original"....

[Nate McKenzie]

I hope this guy didn't part this out to sell one piece at a time!

[JTR]

I hope this guy didn't part this out to sell one piece at a time!

Isn't that the truth. At least back when ebay allowed selling entire guns you could buy the whole thing in one piece. Now they sell them bit by bit.

I seriously doubt this on will ever be seen restored as a complete rifle. While it's a nice buttstock, and was no doubt a nice rifle, the costs to restore it back whole again would far outweigh the value.
Besides, I think that sort of nastiness of making up complete guns from parts is a thing done in the past, and not so much today. Or at least I haven't seen anything suspicious.

John

[scooter]

Some may recall Satan's dilemma in John Milton's Paradise Lost: is it better to serve in heaven or reign in $#*!? Here it is: is it better to have a plain whole gun or a built up gun made over from a buttstock but a truly artistically meritorious arm? My late friend Bill Bowers did much furniture restoration for Joe Kindig Jr and after returning the piece he'd ask for and receive in partial payment a high quality buttstock-- of which Bill assured me there were plenty. Bill had a truly wonderful collection of bas relief carved guns with outstanding patchboxes that had begun life in his shop as buttstocks only. When Bill died there was no end of takers for these reconstructed butts. Looking at some of the recent postings I'd darn well pefer that Shaffer rifle reconstructed to 95% of what I have seen here.
The late Carl Pippert, master restorer and expert on early relief carved guns, was highly critical of at least 1 VERY expensive and unique gun restored by a young hotshot, e.g., there was no model whatsoever for the moulding lines added to missing fore-stock. Pure imagination!
With the Shaffer gun, unless it's changed hands and gone to a real dork, the owner will surely cooperate on correct restoration. And someone will have a grand rifle. Put 11 of those ugly late half-stocks w/ back-action locks, plain as sister you can't get a date for, versus the Shaffer restored and which will nearly all [if not all] pick up and study? After all, my beloved and esteemed colleagues, the butt is where most of the artistic merit is anyway.
Now as to what it's worth given $400K and similar prices a few thousand seems reasonable. Find another!

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

JTR: Never wishing to or knowingly dispute an expert, my concern would be that the patchbox and remaining furniture with remolded inlays could certainly be "added" to a fine old plain jane and a new "almost" original Shaffer , signed or unsigned" could be born. See the "Kunz" patchbox in the "Relics" section of the Museum as an example. Buyer beware!
Hurricane

[JTR]

hurricane,
Well I won't argue with the experts either, but it's certainly true that stray parts have found new homes,,, some honestly as in period restocks, and others not so honestly.
I have a few old buttstocks. Some have most of the brass, most are just stripped bare. Doubt the brass was turned in at the recyclers, but then again I don't know for sure what happened to it.

As for this one, being broken where it is would make it an easy repair. BUT adding new wood to old wood in a convincing and invisible manner is not something that just anyone can do, not to mention matching the color and conditions of the original part. Anyone that can do that quality of work would charge more than the gun would be worth, and done to a lesser degree it'll be obvious to all but the blind.

As far a scooter opinion, yeah, I'd rather own this buttstock restored than some plain jane generic rifle for the same amount of money. Like he said, for the most part what you're paying for is from the lock back!

John

[scooter]

Many excellent recreators of the long rifle, CLA types, earn more by restoring than making. When I was a millionaire if you pulled off the tables of their annual beauty contrast all guns that had more restoration than just a fore-end and reconversion to flint there would have been @!*% few left!
Now I agree with the good pediatrician that a gun that is heavily restored should be sold as that, not as pristine -- or try to find out yourself. But, frankly, many super-fine guns have been restored from butt on up. A few years ago Prof George Carroll, a past imperial wizard of Millionaire Club, had to publish a warning about withholding vital information b/c of another past president's duplicitous behavior. And most of us old timers could name a number of others who did, have do, continue to do same.
But I certainly hope some talented restorer gets that Shaffer rifle and goes to town! To my knowledge only the 2nd such known.
Some very honest modern gunsmiths will put inside the PB lid a list of what they did. Let's hope for that here also.
Only the most inexperienced buyer would purchase  a huge $$$$ gun -- and to me anything over $5K is huge--w/o taking it apart with a knowledgeable gunsmith.
Last, and I'm done -- look at the WONDERFUL job the very talented Louie Parker did on that Peter White once owned by Dr George Shumway and nearly ruined by some dork. We all know the extent of the restoration but this is in my opinion finest Bedfprd Co gun -- or gun made by a Bedfprd Co gunsmith.

[flintriflesmith]

Did anyone catch the final sale price on this auction of the Shaeffer rifle buttstock?

I checked it yesterday afternoon and the bid was a bit under $1100 with the reserve not met. When I tried to watch the end of the sale last night my connection was down -- probably due to all the heavy rain we have gotten.

My guess is it might have gone to $2K.

Gary

[Rootsy]

Looks like it ended at $1026 with reserve not met and 11 bids.

[Hurricane ( of Virginia)]

The reserve was $1500 so I was told by the seller.
Hurricane

[Virginiaboy]

Did anybody save pictures of this buttstock? I was sent one but it will not pull up at all on the computer!

[jdm]

As a fellow collector once said. " I would rather own half a Rembrant than a whole Grandma Moses."

[Fullstock longrifle]

As a fellow collector once said. " I would rather own half a Rembrant than a whole Grandma Moses."

Absolutely.

Frank