length of flint

[Simon]

I have a question for you flint shooters. First I am not asking if a flint can be to short to fire, we all know it can.  What I am asking, is there any effect on speed of ignition as the flint gets shorter?  It seems to me that a short flint would be slower because the angles change as it gets shorter.  Given that a flint must be properly knapped, is there any thing else  that would affect the speed of ignition?  Remember I am asking about the length of the flint only.

[Harnic]

Hi Mel,  I use the half-cock position as my gauge for flint length.  I like the flint to just clear the frizzen face when the "hammer" is in the half cocked notch, so as the flint wears I adjust the flint forward until the jaws can no longer grip it properly.  Then I replace the flint.

[Simon]

I don,t have a lock that likes the bevel down.  It seems the flint hits to square and doesn't scrape  down the frizzen like it should.  I have a new small Siler that I talked to L.C. Rice about and he told me that it would probably like bevel down because the cock is to short for the proper geometry.  I have a Chambers late Ketland that I have only shot about 30 times with only one flash.  This was with the bevel down.  The recommended flint is 3/4 by 7/8,  but looks like it should be over an inch long.  I don,t  have any that long to try, that's why I am asking about short flints.

I may see if Rich can make me some 3/4 by 1 or 1 1/8 inch to try.  Also I make be all wet about the whole thing.

Mel

[SCLoyalist]

If you're concerned about striking angle you can experiment by putting a wedge shaped metal shim between the top or bottom jaw to jack up the rear of the flint.   If it works better for you, then you can decide if you want to make it permanent by bending the cock throat.   Or, also as an experiment, you can alter a flint's shape by building up top, bottom, or back edge with JB Weld to change length and geometry.

Chambers' website recommends a 5/8"W X 3/4" L flint for both the small Siler and the Late Ketland, although I believe I've seen recommendations of a 3/4"W X 7/8" L flint for the Late Ketland on other vendors' sites.   I'm using a 5/8W X 3/4L flint on my late Ketland.  It works fine, although when the flint wears a bit, there is a tendency for the frizzen to not flip open completely.  My late ketland likes about 0.4" of flint sticking out in front of the top jaw.

Take a look at the article on this site:    
http://www.5thny.org/From%20click%20to%20BANG%20-%20DISPATCH%20Article.doc
It may suggest something else to try.


If experimentation fails, you can send a lock off for a tuneup.  Muzzle Blasts runs an ad (Cabin Creek, I think) for lock tuning, and Doc White's website says he does tuning also.   I'm pretty sure LC Rice used to offer the service, too.  

good luck, SCL

P.S.  If you go to Rice Barrel Co.'s website, under New Products, they list 'flint grippers' - a selection of 4 plastic or teflon shims to alter the flint angle.     

[Daryl]

To answer the first question, yes- the flint can be too short.  It can be short enough that only the jaw contacts the frizzen, holding the flint off the surface.  L&R locks have a short throw - at 1/2 bent, adjusting the flint to just barely touch the frizzen weems to work in about all of them. With other locks where the cock sits farther back at 1/2 cock, flint protrusion of about 1/2 the flint's length is about right. When set that way, the flint should be just touching the screw at the rear - in my opinion.

[Simon]

The late Ketlamd lock from Jim Chambers is very well tuned lock.  It performs as it should.  Yes I know that a flint can be to short to work. The experiment to slightly change the angle is interesting and I will try it.  What I am asking is if anyone in shooting a string or match has had ignition slow down that may have been caused by flint wear during the string of shots.

This lock I am using has continued to spark after I expected to stop from lack of knapping.  I am used to knapping after each 5 shot match. I seldom shoot a longer match.  I know that if I am worried about the flint being to short, I should change it.  What I would like is opinion as to the necessity of changing flints before they become to short to spark.

For the best speed of ignition, is it necessary  to keep flint as close to an optimum length as possible.  That's assuming that the optimum could be determined without extensive electronic equipment.

[Roger Fisher]

The late Ketlamd lock from Jim Chambers is very well tuned lock.  It performs as it should.  Yes I know that a flint can be to short to work. The experiment to slightly change the angle is interesting and I will try it.  What I am asking is if anyone in shooting a string or match has had ignition slow down that may have been caused by flint wear during the string of shots.

This lock I am using has continued to spark after I expected to stop from lack of knapping.  I am used to knapping after each 5 shot match. I seldom shoot a longer match.  I know that if I am worried about the flint being to short, I should change it.  What I would like is opinion as to the necessity of changing flints before they become to short to spark.

For the best speed of ignition, is it necessary  to keep flint as close to an optimum length as possible.  That's assuming that the optimum could be determined without extensive electronic equipment.

At $2. a pop (or more) it will become fairly standard practice at line shoots and practice sessions I do believe to keep moving the flint forward in the grasp of the jaws and knapping til no edge left at all.   Not a testimonial; but ol boy rich pierce sells a good white flint.  He's on this site also.

A diamond file or wheel can work off their lumps and rework them to a new edge.

[Daryl]

I move mine up as I shoot to maintain a good length - usually after 25 or 30 shots  and knapp when I get a missfire or hang or refusal to ignite the pan.  I'l knapp the flint and move it forward until the flint is either too short to maintain ignition, or it breaks off or I just get tired of using it and pitch it for getting too thick to knapp well.
I really like hose white flints (chert) than Rich sells.
I've had both is flints and English flints break first shot - and I've gotten up to 200 shots from both sources.  I like the price if river rocks and how hard and sharp they are.  They truely fill my pan to overflowing with sparks.

[Simon]

Are all of you saying that the only thing that matters, as long as the flint sparks, is the flint being long enough to open the frizzen?

You don't get fewer sparks or sparks not in the pan, thus slower ignition, as the flint gets shorter?

SCLOYALIST:  Thanks for the information about changing angles.  I will be trying that. 

[SCLoyalist]

Are all of you saying that the only thing that matters......

I don't think there is an 'only thing that matters' when you're talking flint locks.   The spring strengths, frizzen hardness, frizzen face angle, flint hardness, flint edge, flint edge,  flint angle, and probably several other factors all have to work together.

I've had slowfires because I waited too long to knap and freshen the edge of a flint.  You mentioned knapping every 5 shots, which sounds about the right amount - knapping (or at least checking the edge with a finger) every 5 or 10 shots should keep it sharp.   Obviously, any knapping is going to make the flint shorter since you're removing material.   I knap by putting a finger under the flint edge and using a steel hammer to try to produce just a little dust.  If I get too rowdy and remove flakes, the flint may have an sharp edge, but it's going to get shorter, faster and have fewer sparks in it.

If the flint gets too dull, you get fewer sparks, or colder sparks, and the sparks are what ignite the priming powder.   If the cock/flint length& angle /frizzen face geometry is wrong, the frizzen doesn't open completely and the pan cover may block some of the sparks you do produce, or the sparks aren't thrown to the middle of the pan.



Good luck, SCL

[Daryl]

Good post SCLoyalist - so much we take for granted thinking everyone knows - but sometimes don''t.  shooting a flinter is a learning experience, for sure and something we must go through.  People cannot be told everything there is to know about any shooting subject - they  must actually do it, then ask questions if there are problems that can't be figured out. the internet is a great source of information, at times, too great.  It cretes a new phenominum, one that stymies some people into a semi-frozen state, thinking they must have all the information before doing anything.  I know there are builders who feel this way as well - some people have come to rely on the net and won't do anything for themselves any more.  This is not aimed at anyone and is merely an observation of human interaction and trends we've made over the years - it will persist and we will continue trying to help in any way we can.

  I've found a new flint can be knapped back a long ways before ignition suffers in any form- be that slower ignition or failure to open the frizzen.  Bevel up or down also changes the location the sparks hit the pan. Some locks prefer one or the other - much depends on the angle of the cock's jaws and the arc of travel.  Much also depends on the flint - some cannot be placed bevel down due to angles of the top surface and the way the jaws hold it- causing it to strike over the frizzen or too close to the top.  Lukily, I've a couple locks that allow either bevel up or down - when a flint gets dull shooting bevel down, I can reverse it, snap it once and it 'freshens' itself and continues to spark perfectly - until it gets dull- reversing continues the process - did it few times just to see what would happen - worked fine - mostly can't be bothered with that much finicking around, but it does work - on locks that allow it. I mostly leave the flint alone, knapping as necessary until it's too shot, then toss it and screw in another.

Virtually all of our "shooting" of muzzleloaders is on the trail walks - little is done when hunting.  You learn your rifle or smoothbore at a range, gravel pit or while potting bunnies - not while hunting big game.  Get out and do a p--s pot full of shooting, as often as possible - Once a week is good.  Learn your guns and develope techniques that work for you. 

Round Ball made the same observation about flint reversal some time ago and noted it here on ALR.

[hanshi]

As a matter of being frugal - others say "cheap" - I don't knapp until appearance of a failure to spark prime.  Even then I usually scrape the edge to remove debris the first couple of times.  After that  the flint gets knapped until it is simply too short or thick to work.  Rather than throwing the short flints away, I keep them to use in my smaller locks.  Regardless how old the flint (in the jaws) is I will replace it with a spanking brand new one at the beginning of hunting season.  Targets hang around when your gun misfires; game does not.

[Larry Pletcher]

The length of the flint has an effect on the frizzen rebound.  In the 2007 spring shoot, Lowell Gard brought a Chambers Late Ketland to be videoed in slow motion.  He asked that we video try #1, 11, 21, 31, etc to 61.  When playing back the video we noticed that as the flint shortened, the frizzen rebounded a little closer top the flint than in try#1.  None of these tries came near the flint, but the difference could be seen.

My speculation is that as the flint shortened, the flint struck the frizzen a little later and was traveling faster.  If the flint was indeed faster, it would have struck the frizzen with more energy.  The frizzen is driven against the spring a little harder, causing a deeper rebound.  (Remember this is Pletcher's speculation.)

We could see this in my playback software, but it may not show up on my web site which used "You tube" playback software.  Here is the link to the "You tube" version:
http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/more-high-speed-video-from-friendship.php

Another video worth looking at is:
http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/new-high-speed-video-from-friendship-09.php

This page has an assortment of interesting locks including a Sam Everly ball bearing Siler, a Siler upsidedown firing a pan of cannon grade powder, A wall gun lock, and an original.  Cool Stuff.

Regards,
Pletch

[Simon]

Pletch,  Thanks for the links to the videos.  I have followed your tests as well as I could on your site and your posts.  I looked on your site for some of the data that you had posted.  I can,t remember exactly, but I thought that I had noticed on some of your lock timing tests, that ,generally, the last tests were slower than the first tests.  If my memory is faulty please correct me.

I am not a new flint lock shooter, I got my  first one in about 1980.  I have tried, at one time or another,  all the things suggested except changing the angles slightly. I probably didn't phrase my question very well;  I just wanted to know if anyone thought ignition slowed down as the flint got shorter.  Apparently not.

Thanks for all your comments.  Pletch I will have to think about the faster frizzen rebound, I don't know what that would do to the speed of ignition.  To many things can change it.  Most of my problems are caused by lack of attention to detail.
 

Thanks to all for your responses;      Mel










 

[Larry Pletcher]

Pletch,  Thanks for the links to the videos.  I have followed your tests as well as I could on your site and your posts.  I looked on your site for some of the data that you had posted.  I can,t remember exactly, but I thought that I had noticed on some of your lock timing tests, that ,generally, the last tests were slower than the first tests.  If my memory is faulty please correct me.

I am not a new flint lock shooter, I got my  first one in about 1980.  I have tried, at one time or another,  all the things suggested except changing the angles slightly. I probably didn't phrase my question very well;  I just wanted to know if anyone thought ignition slowed down as the flint got shorter.  Apparently not.

Thanks for all your comments.  Pletch I will have to think about the faster frizzen rebound, I don't know what that would do to the speed of ignition.  To many things can change it.  Most of my problems are caused by lack of attention to detail.
 

Thanks to all for your responses;      Mel

There are a number of conclusions that I draw but some are speculative.  In early tests I usually did a series of 20 trials.   It is generally true that the slower trials are found in the second half of a series.  Some flints demonstrate this remarkably well.  This may be for a variety of reasons besides the length of the flint.   An obvious example is general flint deteriation. 

Another observation is that the first trial after knapping is almost never a fast time.  I suspect that a snap or two knocks off the high spots giving the flint more contact with the frizzen.

In the example I gave of the Late Ketland videoed over many trials,  I can use frame-by-frame playback to get a rough ignition time.  I can count frames and see if the early trial was faster than the later ones.   I don't expect a significant difference.  And as has been mentioned, other flint variables may just as easily be the reason.   I would rather blame it on a general flint deteriation than zero in on flint length.
Regards,
Pletch

[Daryl]

Larry- I-to find the rebounding frizzen to happen often in one of my locks, but only with short flints.  i am convinced this is the reason- higher impact speed, shorter scraping (friction) length combined to create a hard rebounding (off the feather spring) frizzen.

[Leatherbelly]

    I've got over a hundred shots with the flint I'm using in my Deluxe Siler,JP Beck 50 cal rifle.Haven't noticed any variance in ignition times. This flint looks like it will go at least another 50-60 shots,maybe more. Knapped it once today, but very finely.Gun shot very nicely all day today with only two miss fires.(my fault) The flint has worn down about a sixteenth inch in 100 shots. Getting good flint life as this is the second one since this guns birth.(three hundred shots ago) This lock likes a 3/4 x 7/8" black English, bevel up.
  So back to your question. IMHO, I don't think it makes much difference, as long as you are getting a good spark shower,she's going to light.

[Larry Pletcher]

Question was, "Will a shorter flint slow ignition times?"

   I've got over a hundred shots with the flint I'm using in my Deluxe Siler,JP Beck 50 cal rifle.  Haven't noticed any variance in ignition times. . . snipped. . . So back to your question. IMHO, I don't think it makes much difference, as long as you are getting a good spark shower, she's going to light.

I think Leatherbelly hit it pretty well.   Any difference, if any, is small.  With the lock in a fixture, connected to a computer I can measure these, but human senses cannot . 

I might add here that after timing hundreds of locks and thousands of trials, one cannot watch the ignition and predict fast or slow --unless the time is 50-60% slower. My reason for mentioning this is that if you fire the rifle and can feel a slow ignition, it was VERY slow, perhaps caused by dirt in the vent instead of a dull  flint.

I could see a test where a short flint is mounted forward, close to the frizzen and fired for times.  Then, while it is still sharp,  set the flint back and retime.  This might show a difference, but only if one can control all the other variables that creep in  -  fouling being a huge one.  And add to that the gradual dulling of the edge and it becomes  very difficult to say what conclusion can be drawn.  Getting down to one variable with flintlocks can be a real pain. 

I think my advice would be to mind your flint edge, keep your vent clean, and go have fun.

Regards,
Plertch

[Daryl]

One observation I've made with the flinters, is some locks seem to self-nap the flint more than others. Some merely seem to dull the flint.  Some flint 'shapes' & 'thicknesses' work better than others in some locks.  

We are used to shooting the trail a couple times on the same flint - well over 100 shots on that flint, then may have to change flints twice on the very next trail - such it is with rock-locks.

[hanshi]

One very good black English was a textbook self-knapper in my large Siler.  I failed to record the number of shots I got from it but it was never hand-knapped.  Eventually it did shorten up and I removed it to put in a fresh flint in anticipation of hunting season.  But that flint was still sparking fine when I removed it.  I still have that flint and plan on installing it in a small Siler.  Others, of course, ranged from "crummy" to very good.

[frogwalking]

I have a Chambers Virginia lock that sparks fine and I have not yet experienced a misfire:   however.................the frizzen does not open all the way.  It stops with the flint solidly engaged right at the bottom of the frizzen face.  Another 1/16 inch and it would have popped open as expected.  The flint is a very nice black English with a fine thin even edge.  It may be a tad long.  I had to chip the side off to keep it from hitting the barrel.  I had planned on either knapping it to  make it shorter or installing a shorter flint before I said anything or asked for opinions but this thread was going in that direction.  On half cock, the flint clears the frizzen by 3/16 inch. 

 I saw the fine high speed videos and the Chambers English, the same lock, I noticed the movement of the flint slowed and  nearly stopped as it reached the bottom of the frizzen face.  On the one videoed, it did slip off and allow the frizzen to open.  I watched this one  dozen times to be sure I saw what I thought I saw. 

What do you suggest?  Oh..  I am not a spring fixer.  If the spring needs adjusting, who can do that?

[frogwalking]

I got time today to go look over the lock mentioned above more closely, chip the flint back shorter, and if that did not work, try a longer one or one farther out in the hammer jaws.   

I sat down in the shop, lay the gun in my lap, cocked the piece and closed the frizzen.  It worked perfectly.  Three more times the same result.  Someone mentioned to grease the feather spring, which I had done previously.   Maybe this was it, but all seems to be right now.  That is all that is required.