RCA I #17 entry pipe

[Dave B]

I was looking at the Moravian gun makers during the Rev War and came across the rifle attributed to William Antes its # 17 in RCA  I.  The shot of the entry pipe shows an interesting detail. The RCA I photos do not show this view but the maker bent the edges of the entry pipe extension down to form a distinct Chanel. I may be wrong about this but the very end of the extension which is open ended is extremely thin. I venture to say that knowing the thin brass would be susceptible to bending our Mr. Antes did a little structural modification to make this thinner brass last the last couple hundred years. Obviously you cant make exact measurements from just a picture but with out the evidence of the turned back end extension it would almost appear to be at least 1/16th inch thick. You can clearly see the entire side of the inlet portion of the entry  pipe extension now proud of its inlet. He also did filing details on the lateral sides of the turn down section. Can those of you with the new book check this out on page 110 and let me know what you think?

[Tom Currie]

That's a pretty good observation Dave. The new book does show this in some  detail. Certainly would have kept the edges buried a bit lessening the chance they could catch on something. The inletting would have taken a little more effort but certainly worth it. Those edges would have needed to be bent sharply inorder the minimize gaps at the sides.

[Michael]

Dave,

I'm finishing a copy of that gun right now. I believe what Antes did was 'swage' the detail into the end tail piece extension on some type of a former, the same as the ribs on a trade gun ramrod pipe. I did it on mine and then cleaned it up with a fine file.

Michael

[Dave B]

I think you could be right about that.  It was common practice for the trade guns pipes to made that way and the Germans were great about doing things in a workman like manor and it would have been easy enough to do.

[Michael]

Dave,

Whats your take on what appears to be a pin hole for the rear extension of the trigger guard?  It doesn't fit in with the guard that is on the gun now. Is the walnut strip attached to the bottom of the butt something that was added after the gun was finished and this is the original pin hole for the guard?

Michael

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Dave, I think that the molding is simply filed into the sheet brass.  I don't think it is bumped up or doubled, if that is what you might be thinking.

It is indeed odd that there is both a wood screw and a lateral pin hole for the back end of the trigger guard.  I have not read the text that accompanies the pictures...do they mention this feature, and speculate upon the double attachment, as in, is this the original guard?

[Dave B]

Taylor,
I am only saying that the contour of the extension is not the normal shape we are used to seeing. I am not sure that the bands have been raised from under neath but I have several examples of original pipes that have this done. With that said I agree that the details on this pipe look more filed than raised.

The pin in the area of the rear extension is either there to hold a stud passing through the walnut section to help secure it to the stock in an area where tension on the trigger guard may cause possible failure?  Or I think that the trigger guard that is currently on this piece maybe was not the original or was modified when the two sections of walnut were added. I wonder about the need for both additions. It is pure conjecture but it could have been like this. The apprentice was using some artistic license and made the rifle with the maple profile as we see it sans the walnut. The more traditional master comes back from a trip and "Dunkoff,  vas es los ! He now must make it more to the masters liking. You have to admit that the addition of the bottom section makes the cheek piece section look weird with out its addition as well. The confirmation would be an inlet under the scabbed on walnut or a second pin hole in the lock mortise from and extension lug not in the same location as the other. Has any one got the inside scoop on this piece.  I love to listen to the old timers talk about these old rifles and hear the modifications that were done to them back when or what was found when the locks were taken out. It is hard to see but the trigger plate seems to have some interesting details that are hard to make out. It is very wide and may have some filed details and finial that are not very clear.

[Michael]

Dave,
I agree with you on the apprentice scenario. If you look at the close up picture of the carving behind the cheek piece there are scratches (file marks/scraper marks ??) that line up with the edge of the maple part of the cheek piece.  Also I get the sense that the under side of the walnut edge curls back under, concave as opposed to finished square where it meets the lower butt stock. Does that make sense? It sort of droops down. That would explain the weird look to the cheek piece. I wonder if the walnut pieces are original to the gun. Maybe they were added by someone who was attempting to "restore" or repair some damage to the lower butt stock and the edge of the cheek piece and rather than go through the hassle of finding maple that matched the original stock stuck the walnut on there and aged the work to match the wear on the gun. That may also explain the hole that looks like a pin hole for the rear extension of the trigger guard.

At any rate it is a great gun with strong architecture.

Michael

[LURCHWV@BJS]

  With limited knowledge in this world of Muzzleloading I often hear someone make reference to an RCA#.   What are people refering to?  JW


        Rich