Frizzen bounce question....

[Acer Saccharum]

I have a frizzen that is bouncing back upon the lock firing. This breaks off huge chunks of flint, like 1/8" of flint length, right across the whole flint, clean off. It was not doing this before today.

Is my frizzen spring losing its memory? While it seems like a very beefy spring, it does not have a lot of 'open position' tension anymore.

I guess I'd like to have little resistance to opening the frizzen, but lots of tension holding it open. Is that right?

It sounds like I need to reshape the spring, and reharden and temper.

Your thoughts appreciated.

Tom

[Dphariss]

I would redo/replace the spring.

Dan

[volatpluvia]

Acer,
You could add to the foot that bears on the spring to keep the steel open.
volatpluvia

[T*O*F]

It was not doing this before today.

It's a flint problem, not a spring problem.
Rethink your premise.

[Dave B]

Tom, a simple test is to take a piece of wood and insert it into the space of the leaf ( you want it to be a snug fit), in effect stiffening the spring tension slightly. If it is a spring tension issue you will find that the frizzen is no longer rebounding. Springs can loose their effective tension over time If the wedge resolves the problem then re-contour the spring after softening and re-temper. My Cockran lock had this same issue. I just left the wedge of wood in place and shoot it regardless. One of these years I will fix this problem, on the other hand I am not shooting every weekend either.

[Acer Saccharum]

It was not doing this before today.

It's a flint problem, not a spring problem.
Rethink your premise.

I did try that, Dave K. I was using a French blonde flint, and noticed, @!*%, I JUST moved the flint out, now why did it slide back in the jaws? Well, it wasn't sliding back into the jaws, it was being smashed shorter at every shot by the rebounding frizzen. So I put a Rich Pierce tougher-than-all-nails flint in the jaws, and it did not break off. However, being WHITE, it shows the black mark of the frizzen rebounding onto the top of the flint, about 3/16 back from the cutting edge.

Dave B, I like your simple test with the wedge.

I have a duplicate lock in the drawer, so I pulled the frizzen spring off that one, and compared the two springs. The 'problem lock' spring was about 1/32" lower in height than the the duplicate lock spring.

I will try the wedge test before reshaping.

Thanks for your replies.

Tom

[Dphariss]

It was not doing this before today.

It's a flint problem, not a spring problem.
Rethink your premise.

I did try that, Dave K. I was using a French blonde flint, and noticed, @!*%, I JUST moved the flint out, now why did it slide back in the jaws? Well, it wasn't sliding back into the jaws, it was being smashed shorter at every shot by the rebounding frizzen. So I put a Rich Pierce tougher-than-all-nails flint in the jaws, and it did not break off. However, being WHITE, it shows the black mark of the frizzen rebounding onto the top of the flint, about 3/16 back from the cutting edge.

Dave B, I like your simple test with the wedge.

I have a duplicate lock in the drawer, so I pulled the frizzen spring off that one, and compared the two springs. The 'problem lock' spring was about 1/32" lower in height than the the duplicate lock spring.

I will try the wedge test before reshaping.

Thanks for your replies.

Tom

A too hard frizzen can result in too much frizzen speed but if the lock worked OK before the spring went flat its unlikely that its the frizzen or the flint.

Dan

[Acer Saccharum]

Thanks, Dan, I hadn't considered that. I doubt the frizzen is too hard, but maybe a little on the soft side. I'm getting a little digging in at the point of impact, but then good scraping motion.

I was thinking of curving the frizzen top toward the cock a bit, to get better scraping from the first impact.

Of course, I will anneal the frizzen, and bend it with heat. When annealed, I can file the outside surfaces smooth, instead of hardening it and then having to stone it. 

[T*O*F]

Tom,
Regardless of what has been said, I still think it's a flint problem that you are overcomplicating with a shade tree mechanic approach to fixing.

Got some stuff going on now.  Will respond later this afternoon.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

My friend Hatchet Jack has a Tulle musket for which he has ordered a spare lock, and three spare main and frizzen springs.  He does not like to be handicapped by a broken spring, though he has only had a couple in all the years he's been shooting.
Anyway, in buying the replacement springs, I found that there are not two the same as far as spread of the leaves is concerned, and so I heat to red and reshape them all, then harden and temper.  I just did one last week for his "Taylor Made" Tulle as the frizzen spring was allowing the frizzen to rebound, breaking his brand new flints off at the jaws.  When I saw him yesterday on the trail, he was ecstatic with the lock's performance, and also a perceived increase in his accuracy with the gun.
So Tom, I'll bet you just have to spread the leaves a little to increase tension in the open position, and all your worries will be over.  Yes, all.

[Acer Saccharum]

So Tom, I'll bet you just have to spread the leaves a little to increase tension in the open position.....

Sounds like shade tree mechanics to me, Taylor.

[Daryl]

hmmmmmm

[Acer Saccharum]

Taylor, I appreciate you sharing your experience and insight. I am going to spread the leaves, but also bend the tip of the leaf DOWN just at the end, this will allow the frizzen to cam over quicker, and with with less initial resistance.

Dave, you are bugging me with your insistence on shadetree mechanics and overthinking the situation, while offering no positive suggestions. I would be interested in hearing your flint ideas once I cool off a bit.

Tom

[Rootsy]

The objective of "tuning" a system is to achieve proper function within parameters through the greatest range of variables.

[FG1]

Are you positive it is opening fully then snapping back on flint ? I had a Durs Egg that would almost cam all the way over before coming to rest on flint blowing sparks and smoke back in your face.

[Acer Saccharum]

Yes, FG, I know the frizzen is bouncing back because on the white flints there is a black mark where the frizzen hits ON TOP OF the flint. These flints are durable as $#*!, and won't shear off like the French flints did. The Frenchies look like they are professionally knapped after I fire one shot. The frizzen snaps back on top of the flint, leaving a pan full of shards, and the flint 1/8 to 3/16 shorter. The white flints stop the frizzen. Black flints shear off, too.

[FG1]

What I was trying to get at is on the Egg lock it never went to full open where the tail touched the spring . It never made it that far .  It would  just about cam over then slam closed .What I did was put a little dab of grease where the tail should rest when full open so if it was bouncing back it would leave witness on the tail .Turned out it wasnt.
This was just me trying to trouble shoot what was happening with mine. I ended up having to relieve tension on this particular spring.
No arguement here , just relaying what went on with mine

[Acer Saccharum]

That makes a lot of sense. I will check that out before I really gum up the works!

[wvmtnman]

I had this happen on one of those Colonial American locks by Davis.  Heat the very tip of the spring and bend it up, putting a little curve upward.  This will allow the frizzen to kick open but the curve will not allow it to kick back.  At first, I too did not believe it was happening because it happens so fast, but it did.
                                                                              Brian

[Dave B]

Herschel talked about this problem when I attended a work shop at the  University of Western KY courses. He said the test to see if its rebounding was to take a business card and hold it on the top leaf of the feather spring snap the lock and it will have a distict impression from the frizzen in the card showing the full rebounding. Obviously the black line on the white flints and bits and fragments from the french and black flints should be proof enough. 

Some who doubt rebounding frizzens should check out some of the high speed photography of the flintlocks done by one of our own Larry Pletcher.   One of the English locks with a roller must have cycled back and fourth six times before you could blink. The high speed sequence left no doubt as to its happening.