Author Topic: Old/New Topic on patches and ball fitting  (Read 21240 times)

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Old/New Topic on patches and ball fitting
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2013, 05:28:08 PM »
Swages and drawing and sizing and such.
Corbin can call their stuff what want and they are likely technically correct even if  the process can be described accurately with another name. It is not necessary to pull a metal to "draw" it.
There are numerous ways to describe "drawing". Brass cartridge cases are drawn(stretched, thinned and case head formed from a little hockey puck looking cup punched from a thick sheet of brass) using a set of punches and dies that progressively stretch and shape the brass. This is called "drawing". But its done with presses and a lot of pressure in some operations.
So while wire is "drawn"  by pulling through dies to thin and stretch it, cartridge cases and other metal objects  are also  "drawn" by being pushed through a die with a punch that, due to the fit between the die and the punch at one point draws the brass longer by pressing it thinner.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline hanshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5335
  • My passion is longrifles!
    • martialartsusa.com
Re: Old/New Topic on patches and ball fitting
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2013, 10:37:58 PM »
Semantics, semantics.  Really now!
!Jozai Senjo! "always present on the battlefield"
Young guys should hang out with old guys; old guys know stuff.

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15832
Re: Old/New Topic on patches and ball fitting
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2013, 07:55:23 PM »
Thanks Dan - the ctg. case forming from punched blanks is a good example. Indeed they are known as drawn cartridge brass or cases as opposed to those that are lathe turned or formed by wrapping.

Hanshi - it happens.

The important thing aboutnomenclature is that it is more important to get our firearms terminology correct as much of it is being degraded and discarded.

Have you ever heard - "I'm going to cast (or buy) some leads and go shoot my black powder?"  Another example - some guys think it's 'smart-ass'(or something) to say boolits, instead of bullets - I'm seeing this more and more on various web sites.

Makes my skin crawl.

Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline sydney

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 357
Re: Old/New Topic on patches and ball fitting
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2013, 06:07:22 AM »
Hi--I agree about the importance of nomenclature ( nice to see you are using your
      thesaurus when posting  )   
     Re your post of sept 27 2010 you said ( swage or draw a patch and ball
      into the bore)-- terms were interchangeable at the time ??
     Re your post of  oct 6-- using a micrometer
       there is only 1 anvil -the other half is called the spindle
       you mentioned a barrel this called a thimble which rotates
       you mentioned a body this is called a frame
       The thimble rotates around the sleeve--the sleeve being part of the frame
          As you said it make my skin crawl
              sydney     

Vomitus

  • Guest
Re: Old/New Topic on patches and ball fitting
« Reply #29 on: November 02, 2013, 10:22:00 PM »
  Hey Daryls, Got any leads for my black powder? LMAO! Yep, we've got some good mileage on that one! Here in Prince George we call a re-entry a "Roger Fisher" because here, there is no such thing as a re-entry. All out of respect for the man. When we shoot a "Roger Fisher", it's a second shot at a target we missed.(while shooting practice rounds). Hope Roger is doing good. I always keep him in my prayers and I hope others are too. Sure miss him!
  Want accuracy? Shoot tight combo's and a good lube....the end

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Old/New Topic on patches and ball fitting
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2013, 04:57:31 PM »
Semantics, semantics.  Really now!
It does avoid confusion afterall.
A flintlock is not a wheellock and a forming die/swage block is not a drawing die.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Curtis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2338
  • Missouri
Re: Old/New Topic on patches and ball fitting
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2013, 09:54:08 AM »
Daryl

I take everything I read online with a grain of salt.......   after some testing I came to agree with your bp rifle loading philosophy  nearly 100%.  Hasn't failed me yet


Curtis
Curtis Allinson
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: Old/New Topic on patches and ball fitting
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2013, 07:15:31 AM »
Curtis, you may not know how fulfilling your comment is.  We read of all of the issues shooters seem to have, and make our own observations on how we think they can deal with them....over and over again, until I'm sure some are sick to death of our opinions.  But, in the relatively small circles in which we revolve, Daryl and I have enjoyed a life time of being in the winner's circle, and still, at retirement age, are a considerable force.  It is simply our wish to take away some of the frustration that some shooters experience.  Might I add that what we have come to know has come through reading books such as "The Muzzle Loading Caplock Rifle" by Ned Roberts, and "Shooting and Winning with the Champions" by Don Davis, and then putting what we read to practice.  We have never had the benefit of mentors for shooting muzzleloaders, but I will concede that we were both trained to shoot by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, and by our own perseverance. And I love the cliche philosophy of "Aim Small - Miss Small".
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Don Steele

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 689
Re: Old/New Topic on patches and ball fitting
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2013, 01:56:32 PM »
Gentlemen,
I came to patched RB shooting relatively late in life after decades of precision shooting cartridge rifles and handguns. As many here know...in that world, the integrity of the barrel crown is sacred. With that background....when I got my first brand-spanking new Green Mtn. "roundball" barrel, I also received some excellent advise about loading "tight".
When the predictable patch-cutting evidenced itself the gentleman I bought the barrel from advised me to use my thumb and a piece of emery cloth to smooth it out.  :o For me, that was a total leap of faith. I have to admit I was hesitant to take something so non-precise and just sort of "have-at-it". Following the telephoned instructions as best I could....the result was night and day.  ;D
The real lesson was to illustrate how much I had to learn. That was in the mid-90's. I come here everyday and generally learn something with each visit.   
Look at the world with a smilin' eye and laugh at the devil as his train rolls by...(Alison Krauss)

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15832
Re: Old/New Topic on patches and ball fitting
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2013, 11:11:08 PM »
Taylor has hit the nail squarely on it's head.  Thanks Taylor, Don, Curtis, Wade and everyone else who has tried and found that what we've been saying over and over again, actually works so well.

Don - it's amazing, isn't it - the sharpest crown, or nowadays an 11 degree crown was/is the ultimate for perfect delivery of the projectile, yet here we are using a thumb and emery and achieving accuracy the 'best' crown shape could not give us.  Loading at the muzzle, changes many of the rules.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Curtis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2338
  • Missouri
Re: Old/New Topic on patches and ball fitting
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2013, 01:55:56 AM »
The very tight, wet lubed patched roundball shooting clean is really quite logical when you think about it.  What do most bp shooters do to clean their bore?   Why shove a tight wet patch down it of course!  The fact that the combination shoots so consistantly accurate is a bonus!

Curtis
Curtis Allinson
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Re: Old/New Topic on patches and ball fitting
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2013, 09:09:09 AM »
I learned to fix crowns with less-than-precision tools way back then on breechloaders. 

With small calibers one might use a round-headed brass screw chucked into a drill with lapping compound. He might indeed.

Hold to the Wind

Offline Artificer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1660
Re: Old/New Topic on patches and ball fitting
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2013, 02:31:34 PM »
I grew up hunting with shotguns and .22 cal. rifles, but had no experience with high power rifles until I joined the Marine Corps.  I was amazed at the thought of shooting a peep sighted rifle at 200 yards offhand before I started doing it.  In Boot Camp, I ran 7 consecutive Bullseye’s at the 200 Offhand until I fired my 8th shot, and in recoil, realized I had lined up on the target next to mine.  It was also a bullseye, but did not count as it was not on my target.  After that, things went downhill fast….Grin.

During Boot Camp leave, I bought a .50 cal. TC “Hawken” rifle.  Using balls cast from the mold provided and their patching material and with the 60 grain load they recommended, I sat down on frozen Iowa ground in January, took up a good sitting position and placed three balls where the maximum spread between two shots was 1 ¾” on a target by actual measurement.  I knew I did not yet have the best/most accurate load for the rifle, but I was hooked. 

Within less than two years from that date, I began my one year apprenticeship to build National Match Rifles and Pistols, Sniper Rifles, etc. for the Marine Corps and spent most of the next 23 years in that capacity.  While the Junior Armorer on THE Marine Corps Rifle Team in 1975, I learned the importance of “touching up the crown” or refreshing it, every 400 to 600 rounds to keep the rifles shooting at top notch accuracy. 

During those early years, I also went to Friendship to compete with flintlock rifles and smoothbores and see some of the better shooters on the Primitive Range and from the “Tin Tipi’s,” though much more on the Primitive Range over the next 7 years.  I also began working original and reproduction Civil War guns at the Spring and Fall National Shoots of the NSSA for 23 of the next 30 years.

You really can’t compare having to refresh the crowns of modern rifles to muzzle loaders all that much.  Modern rifles “burn out” the muzzle crowns much faster than in muzzle loaders; from the gas igniting at the muzzle, the higher pressures and the fact we shoot a LOT more rounds per year than muzzleloaders are shot.  Also, in Muzzleloading, we are not trying to keep 10 shots within a 3” circle fired from a machine rest at 300 yards on a NM M14, or a 4 3/4” ten shot group fired at 1,000 yards from a bolt action sniper rifle in a machine rest.  This last group size was fired from a Model 40A1 sniper rifle with the then “new” long range ammunition in the mid 1990’s.  I was the Shop Chief of the Marine Corps Rifle and Pistol Team Equipment Repair Shop when that group was fired and was there in person to witness the shooting and measuring the group size.  Yes, we were astounded at that accuracy.

The famous “11 degree crown” on highpower NM rifles actually came from a test made by Springfield Arsenal on an EARLY M1903 cartridge/bullet combination.  It was found it was best for that bullet, but not all bullets of that time.  Still, once found, it became the indisputable muzzle crown angle from then on and was used on GI crowning tools throughout the era of the Springfield 03 and M1 Garand.  Benchrest shooters later actually proved  the angle of the crown was not nearly so important as how exactly uniform the crown was cut/formed – no matter the angle.

If a muzzleloading barrel crown is cutting a patch, that often means there is a burr or sharp edge in the crown.  That is not good for accuracy even on modern rifles and is strictly avoided when touching up modern rifle crowns.  However on modern rifles, it won’t take long for the tight fitting bullets to break off a burr.  That would not happen for many more rounds fired from a muzzle loader. 

I think the reason one can get away with using the thumb and garnet paper to smooth a muzzleloading crown is the bullet does not directly engage the lands and grooves with a patched ball.  I also think that most of the time, you don’t reach the crown right at the ends of the lands and grooves (in the barrel) when you do that and that’s where a uniform crown is the most important for accuracy.  Looking at the last picture that Daryl submitted, it is easy to see the crown right at the ends of the lands and groves were not polished by the garnet paper.  (On NM rifles, we made sure we cut deep enough with the crowning tool that the end of every land was recut.)   Still, I’m pretty sure if a person did it enough to seriously deform a uniform shaped muzzle crown, it would negatively affect accuracy. 

It seems a good number of people have reported a loss of accuracy in a patched ball barrel when the muzzles were coned.  Perhaps this was because the cones were not cut concentric to the bore?  Or perhaps that allowed the bullet sprue to shift positions in loading from shot to shot.  I’m not sure about that, as I don’t have much experience with coned bores. 

Over the years, I have used different bore guides to recut the crowns on more minie ball barrels than patched ball barrels (both repro and original barrels of both types), though I’ve cut a couple dozen of the latter with 11degree, 12 flute carbide cutters we used for modern rifles.  It always made a positive difference in accuracy, though the more worn or non uniform the crown was, the more noticeable the difference in accuracy after crown was recut.  ALSO, if the muzzle face was not uniform to the bore, that leads to more inaccuracy even when the muzzle or bore crown was done in a uniform manner.  It’s often easy to see if the muzzle face is not concentric to the bore when you cut the barrel crown with a pecision cutter, because the barrel crown then is not the same distance all the way around the barrel.

Gus

Offline WadePatton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5303
  • Tennessee
Re: Old/New Topic on patches and ball fitting
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2013, 09:29:53 PM »
Yes, non-precise screw/drill/compound method allows screw "cutter" to follow the bore/muzzle relationship established by the mfg process.  New or Old, production guns often need help out of the box.
Hold to the Wind

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15832
Re: Old/New Topic on patches and ball fitting
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2013, 11:01:53 PM »
Most barrel makers or rifle builders simply use a tool to cut about a 45 or 60 degree angle in the muzzle of the barrel.  Many shooters, paying mega or not so much for the rifle, think this barrel is crowned - they can see the angle cut at the muzzle - it isn't square, thus it is crowned.

What they have is actually a fairly sharp, but angled & sharp edge on each land and groove that cuts the patch if the combination is tight enough to even 'almost seal in the bottom of the grooves - thus with the patch cutting on loading, accuracy is non-existent & erratic.  Thus, the shooter tries a looser ball and patch combination and finds that shoots better in THAT barrel than the tight combination - it's OK, he thinks, that he has to wipe it often due to fouling buildup or accuracy loss with repeated shots without wiping. 

Of course, those of us who've been down that road, know that smoothing the crown to allow that tight combination to do it's work, also know we will be rewarded with much superior accuracy than the original non-touched muzzle can deliver.

Although your thumb and emery sounds less than exact, turning the barrel periodically while working on it or using the same thumb/emery method while the barrel turns in a lathe, ensures an even crown.  It is easier to cut a wonky crown with a standard cutting tool as the hole might not be EXACTLY in the middle of the barrel or the barrel not perfectly centred in the lathe.  The thumb and emery automatically centres what you do in the hole itself.

Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V