Author Topic: Distance between Flint and Frizzen  (Read 9302 times)

LURCHWV@BJS

  • Guest
Distance between Flint and Frizzen
« on: September 29, 2010, 02:58:23 PM »

   I'm not sure this is the right area to put this thread in but I feel it pertains to shooting.  I've never owned a flintlock.  I bought an L&R Early Germanic lock.  When the cock is at full what should the approximate distance be between the flint and the frizzen?  Tthe reason I ask is when I pull the trigger I only get one maybe two sparks with a sharp new English Flint.  I wondered if it is possible a shorter flint would give a better spark since the travel distance would be longer and the cock would be able to gain a little more umph.

   When I ordered the Lock I asked the man to send me the appropriate size flint for the lock.  I believe they'er 7/8. ??? ???

    Rich

Offline Don Getz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6853
Re: Distance between Flint and Frizzen
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2010, 03:58:27 PM »
Rich.....you might have to fiddle with it until you find what works, bevel up, bevel down, etc..............Don

Offline smallpatch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4107
  • Dane Lund
Re: Distance between Flint and Frizzen
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2010, 04:11:03 PM »
I know this will probably start a war here, but here goes.
I've never seen an L&R lock that had a strong enough main spring.  (except the Manton and Bailles).  The last two that I used, I had to replace the mainsprings, or rebend the one that came on it.
It can be done pretty easily, but you really shouldn't have to.  I use Chamber's from now on.
In His grip,

Dane

Scott Semmel

  • Guest
Re: Distance between Flint and Frizzen
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2010, 04:22:32 PM »
I have the same lock on a .58. As with all my locks I position the flint with lock at half cock so that it does not prevent frizzen from fully closing. Distance fron frizzen to flint is then the distance from half to full cock. If that is how you positioned your flint and you're not getting good sparks my best guess is something else is at fault. You stated that you were new to rock locks, It took me a while to be able to accurately gudge the sharpness of a flint, maybe I'm a slow learner , but my experince tells me that first I'ld knap the flint, Second check that the flint is not positioned where the inside corner is hitting the barrel, Make sure the face of the frizzen is  oil free and give it a few rubbs with coarse emmory.  If still no good sparks I'ld Take the lock out of the gun and see if it sparks when held in a vice, If it sparks out of the gun but not in it some thing is slowing hammer throw.

Offline SCLoyalist

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 697
Re: Distance between Flint and Frizzen
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2010, 04:32:28 PM »
I believe a general rule of thumb is the flint edge should contact the frizzen about 2/3 of the way up the face of the frizzen, so you might try adjusting the flint in the jaws to achieve that and see if that helps.  And, the flint ought to graze the frizzen face rather than slam into it at a right angle. You can experiment with the angle with shims between the jaws and the flint.  

L&R's site lists 3/4" flint for their Early Classic series, which I believe your lock is, so a flint 3/4"Wide X 7/8" Long should be about right.

Only getting one or two sparks?  Could be a frizzen hardness issue.  Is the flint showing signs of damage, and is the frizzen showing any gouges?

http://www.5thny.org/From%20click%20to%20BANG%20-%20DISPATCH%20Article.doc   may give you some ideas.

Good luck - and don't worry - having to go through a lock tuning cycle with a new lock seems to be the norm.

SCL



« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 05:10:34 PM by SCLoyalist »

Scott Semmel

  • Guest
Re: Distance between Flint and Frizzen
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2010, 04:52:31 PM »
Daaah- I forgot, make sure the flint is tightly held by the hammer.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: Distance between Flint and Frizzen
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2010, 05:37:39 PM »
Just about the first thing I do when I receive a new lock is to put a new flint in it and try it for spark.  I have to say that some locks have at first been a disappointment, while others are surprisingly efficient right out of the box.  I think it's frizzen temper that is the biggest contributing factor.  L & R's are harder that some others, but seem to get better as they wear.  Perhaps there is an extra hard skin on the surface that once cut up, allows the flint to scrape sparks from the softer steel.  Lock design has a lot to do with it too. 
I put a Davis "late Ketland" lock on a little .50 cal to convert it to flintlock, and it was very tentative at first, but sparks like a bugger now.  The same story for an L & R "Classic American" that started out life as a Vance lock.  In spite of a slow start, the lock has served very well for 25 years.
So don't give up on 'em, Rich.  Tinkering and tuning is how we learn about these fascinating devices.  You can get an education by reading stuff on this and other forums, but putting in the time on your bench will educate you more gooder.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Hank*in*WV

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 398
Re: Distance between Flint and Frizzen
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2010, 12:25:50 AM »
What color are the sparks?
"Much of the social history of the western world over the past three decades has involved replacing what worked with what sounded good. . ." Thomas Sowell

Offline JCKelly

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1434
Re: Distance between Flint and Frizzen
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2010, 03:45:57 AM »
Logged on to, tried, www.5thNy . . . .   had to shut computer down to get out, never did connect. You fellas might take note.

Offline SCLoyalist

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 697
Re: Distance between Flint and Frizzen
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2010, 04:50:27 AM »
JC, - I just tried it again - got a dialog box asking if I want to open or save the file.   I've always clicked "Open", and about 5 to 10 seconds later there's an open pdf file to read.  Apparently it was produced by an AWI reenactor group. It's 18 pages long, starts out:

"Introduction

How often do we see something like this on the field?

We are at the highlight of a Tactical Demonstration.  A dozen or so soldiers make ready, present and fire a volley – of one or two muskets!  It happens with embarrassing frequency, often just when the scenario requires a crashing volley.

Sure, misfires happened frequently on the 18th Century battlefield.  But not in the massive proportions that we frequently experience.  Contemporary commentators estimated that approximately 15% of the muskets in any given volley would misfire.   All too often we only get about 15% of our muskets to fire.

This paper looks at a number of things that we can do to increase the reliability of our flintlock musket or rifle – in other words, what we can do to improve the odds that when we pull the trigger, it will go BANG! Instead of click.
          .......
The discussion is organized into five parts:

Reliability in the Field, or things you can do on the field to improve reliability.

Preparations to Insure Reliability, or things you can do before you leave home to improve reliability.

Modifications to Enhance Reliability, which will discuss things that you can do to “tune” your firelock to improve its performance.

Maintenance in the Field, which will discuss field cleaning and simple maintenance that you can do in the field in an authentic manner.

Maintenance at Home, which will discuss cleaning and maintaining your firelock at home where you presumably have access to modern materials and tools.
"
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 05:40:21 AM by SCLoyalist »

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Distance between Flint and Frizzen
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2010, 06:24:00 AM »
I have 3 L&R locks - every one of them is a good sparker - without any mods.   Bailes, Manton and Dickert.  The Dickert is the fastest firing flint lock I've every seen.  Even Taylor was impressed when I shot side by side with a good working Chamber's lock- and I thought the Chambers lock was faster than mine but Taylor said he wasn't so sure. Good enough for me.

 We buy all our L&R locks from Track - maybe that has something to do with our success. On another forum, seemed open season on L&R's by many of the posters.  that just didn't ring true with what I'd seen myself, nor Taylor.

LURCHWV@BJS

  • Guest
Re: Distance between Flint and Frizzen
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2010, 12:36:50 AM »
I really feel like such an idiot,  I had blackened the inside of the lock with soot from an oil lamp to find where the lock was hanging up.  I forgot to clean and oil it.

  Amazingly after doing so it really sparks,....... Alot.   Chalk another Bonehead move up for me.  (In case you're keeping track) ;D ;D ;D ::)


     Rich

Offline Bill of the 45th

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1436
  • Gaylord, Michigan
Re: Distance between Flint and Frizzen
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2010, 12:45:07 AM »
Yes, we're keeping score Rich, and boy is it adding up. ;D ;D ;D  But we still love ya, and we have all been there, so don't be too hard on yourself.   The real score is in how many band aides you have used in these endeavors. ::)

Bill
Bill Knapp
Over the Hill, What Hill, and when did I go over it?

Offline Long John

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1618
  • Give me Liberty or give me Death
Re: Distance between Flint and Frizzen
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2010, 12:53:58 AM »
Rich,

Carbon-black ( soot) is a very old, authentic, dry lubricant.  You probably have a rough spot in the lock some where that just needed a little lube.  Remember this - some day you might be out on a trek, 90 miles from the nearest trading post and need to limber-up a lock some.

I place the lock at 1/2 cock and adjust the flint so it is just shy of touching the frizzen.  This maximizes the scrape stroke of the flint on the frizzen and yet ensures that the frizzen can close completely.

Your flint should be as sharp as your chizels.  Remember how folks have told you to drag the chisel edge across a finger nail to see if it digs in from its own weight?  Well a flint should feel that sharp for good sparking.  Remember that the flint is shaving off bits of hardened steel and heating them up to white-hot in the process.

Best Regards,

JMC

Offline Roger Fisher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6805
Re: Distance between Flint and Frizzen
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2010, 01:52:35 AM »
I really feel like such an idiot,  I had blackened the inside of the lock with soot from an oil lamp to find where the lock was hanging up.  I forgot to clean and oil it.

  Amazingly after doing so it really sparks,....... Alot.   Chalk another Bonehead move up for me.  (In case you're keeping track) ;D ;D ;D ::)


     Rich
Gotta tell ya youngster, if only all lock problems would be that easy to fix!

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Distance between Flint and Frizzen
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2010, 06:18:42 AM »
The flint should be sharp enough that you are afraid to run your finger across it to check.
 

LURCHWV@BJS

  • Guest
Re: Distance between Flint and Frizzen
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2010, 03:50:05 PM »
  Oh it is BANDAID NUMBER ONE ::)  I can shave with it. ;D

  Thank you for your response,

      Rich