Author Topic: ACW Minee ball shooting  (Read 10900 times)

Offline BJH

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ACW Minee ball shooting
« on: September 30, 2010, 12:10:11 AM »
Just ran across a repro zuave musket in excellen condition for a price I couldn't refuse. Any body have any expierence with these. BJH
BJH

Offline l.cutler

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2010, 02:14:17 AM »
Using a minie that is no more than .002 under bore size and pure lead is critical.  You will need to measure your bore, these were all over the place.  I have had three and the bore size ranged from .577 to .583.

ottawa

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2010, 02:46:15 AM »
had verygood accuracy with a .570 round ball in mine Minnie were touch and go

Daryl

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2010, 06:40:42 AM »
I've played with a couple Zouaves and about 4 of the progressive groove depth Enfields. All shot amazingly well with patched round balls. I used .575's, but the .570s are just fine due to the shallow rifling at the muzzle of the Enfields and all the way down for the Zouaves.
Every Enfield shot best with 80 2F to 120gr. 2F. I used .020" to .0215" patches.
Incidently, my 24" bl'd. Musketoon shoots well enough that I placed a strong second with it at Heffley Rondy in the 'veggie' war - There were over 120 shooters in the competiton.  The .58 military rifles are all accurate - with round balls. I see most people using too little powder to make them work well enough to compete against all comers. They will, if fed appropriately.  With light charges, the lack of accuracy at longer ranges and high trajectory make hitting an iffy proposition.  My last Zouave was good for 2 1/2" at 100 yards for 5 shot gorups, off the bags & was powerful enopugh for moose, elk and big bears.
A sight change is in order as well.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 06:41:01 AM by Daryl »

Offline Frizzen

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2010, 05:33:58 PM »
Daryl, Do use the 80 gr FF in the little short Musketoon?  My wife has one of them , but can only
shoot about 40 grs with a .570 ball and .020 patch.
The Pistol Shooter

Daryl

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2010, 05:53:29 PM »
Yes- 80gr.  I couldn't find my 75gr. measure at Heffley when gathering my stuff together, so I used an 80gr. - actualy 3 drams - 82gr.  It's the starting charge I used for the Zouaves and Enfields as well.  Same charge for close shooting in my .62 smoothie and the close range plinking load for my .69.
82gr.2F probably over 1,400fps from that 24" bl.  A mere 70gr. chrono'd 1,308fps, some 231fps higher than Lyman's book gives for that barrel length.  Did I mention I use a .562" ball in the Musketoon due to it's (Italian) tight bore of .574" and only .003" rifling at the muzzle.  It's probably around .011" to .012" deep at the breech.  The increased depth can be seen easily with a bore scope.  The 75gr. charge, prints 5 into a 1 1/4" round hole at 50 yards with it's slightly modified battle sights.  I soldered a piece of steel across the rear V notch and cut the new, smaller V notch slightly to the right to get the windage right. I also slotted the front sight base and soldered in a silver blade for filing to the right height.  It ended up almsot exactly the same height as the original - should have left it stock.  It's a handly little rifle now with lotsa noise from it's short stubby barrel.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2010, 04:40:37 PM by Daryl »

BrownBear

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2010, 06:36:13 AM »
It's a handly little rifle now with lotsa noise from it's short stubby barrel.

Just had to chip in, since I've got a 24"  58 caliber (not a Zouave). 

My shooting pards will agree with you on the noise.  They named the rifle:  DANG!!!!

That's what they say every time I fire it.  It's considerably louder than a 28" 58 caliber with the same load.

Sure is a handy hunting rifle though.  Kills so fast and well that it's earned another reason for its name.

Offline stuart cee dub

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2010, 07:58:01 AM »
Most of the shooters on this site are confirmed patched round ball shooters ,but a few of us dabble in minie rifles.
The least expensive part about minie rifles is often the rifle itself if you want to shoot the minie .

If you really know what the bore size is ,Patrick Kaboskey (262)363-4625 has a wide selection of bullet molds and will mold you up a selection to try.Once you know what bullet works in your rifle then spend the money for a mold .He has helped a lot of minie shooters find the right bullet for their rifles. Once you find the right bullet they are a real delight .Mine shoots the RCBS Hodgedon great out to about 100 yds out of a .577 bore .I use the .576 bullet over 46 grains of 3 f.
It is less expensive to have a selection of bullets molded up then buying and trying different molds at 50 to 110.00 dollars a pop . I had tried two molds without great success then ran across Mr Kaboskey's flyer ,gave him a call and found two very good bullets for my springfield .Minie shooters will often trade bullets with each other as we all initially have that problem to solve.

The other route is the round ball .Many of the repos shoot them just fine but patched round ball is not nearly so convenient or quick to load .
You can shoot round ball at the NMLRA ''as issued military rifle'' matches ,but some local shoots are minie only .I have shot against round ball shooters with my minie rifle  and neither of party  felt the other had any kind of accuracy advantage .It really is much more about trigger control and knowing  the sight picture for a given range as the trajectory is not as flat as the speedier roundball .

Round balls are easier to mold and less fussy about lead hardness.With a round ball gun there are few variables to play with so it is often easier to get them to shoot accurately and therefore both less frustrating and less costly. Hunting lethality with a .58 is not an issue with either projectile.  

What I like about minie rifles is that if you get a good quality one closely matching the quality of an original  military issue rifle is that they are very sturdy ,a snap to clean and sure fire with that big musket cap. Originals are well balanced ,carefully made ,over engineered and real pieces of the gunmakers art. Unfortunately many replicas are indifferently made  with bore tolerances all over the map with horrible trigger pulls poorly inletted and needing acraglass bedding at a minimum . There is a lot of information out there on tuning replica military muskets .Originals were made to exacting tolerances .Modern replicas vary from good to outright junk. They can absolutely be improved by tuning .

 There are a lot of used minie guns out there to be found on the rack including the good ones . Many are there because their owners did not spend the necessary time to figure them out.It sounds like you found a good one in excellent condition BH . Let us know how your rifle works out and what you end up shooting for a projectile. 






« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 08:04:22 AM by stuart cee dub »

Offline BJH

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2010, 06:09:04 PM »
So far I am highly under Impressed. I bought a Lee Minee ball mould. Cast a bunch up, sorted them carefully visually. Took the gun out Saturday. Using Crisco as a lube and 55 and 60 gr of ffg goex. The rifle shot 18 in 'groops"at 50 yds. The bullets would seat 3/4 of their length in the muzzle and would need a bump with a short starter. So I would not think they were too small in dia. 10 lb trigger pull did not help much either.. Heck I can shoot 3 in  groups with my smooth bore at 50 yds. I will probably try it out with round balls as I allready have a .58 mould. The bore dia at the muzzle is very close to .575. It seems to increase as the bullet reaches the breech. I am primarily a flintlock shooter and occasionally  dabble in  other disciplines
BJH

Pvt. Lon Grifle

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #9 on: October 03, 2010, 07:46:19 PM »
Take advantage of that tight Lee minie' to SLUG your bore.   Then size it down so that a dry sized ball will slowly slide vertically down a clean dry bore. You should hear the soft thunk as it hits the breech.  Sizing will probably be in the range of 1 1/2 thousands smaller than bore diameter. Fit and roundness is the object.   Use a chapstick -soft lube for shooting. Start load development at about 40 grains fffg GOOD powder. Go up in charge by 10s, back by 5s till you get some usable results. Further refinement is possible.  A firm , not brutal tamp is all that is required.   

I never had good results with any Lee minie'.  The RCBS 530 grain traditional, fit as above gave 840 fps muzzle velocity in my 2-band Enfield with a 1/56 Hoyt 7-groove barrel @ 40 grains. and was still suffiently accurate for a good percentage of hits on the SR-1 @ 100 offhand.

Euro copies have been in production for 50 years. Quality is all over the map now, due to the re-enacting, not shooting popularity of the arms. The locks are carp, but amazingly the barrels are fairly uniform as the home-workshop aspects of the rifles have lessened. 

Replace the sights if you are serious. They are usually garbage on the Enfield repros because of poor fit and slop. Visit the N-SSA site for vendors, barrels, sights, and the like.  Good shooting

Offline stuart cee dub

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2010, 07:03:51 AM »
 Well BH the round ball might work .It might even save some frustration .You did not mention any ignition issues so that is a plus .

The usual things to bring it up to working condition is bed the tang and barrel, clean up the lock by adjusting the sear notch ,lightening the sear spring and polishing the bearing surfaces .Sometimes the sights can be too loose. I have used a rubber band to tighten them .All of these things will take some of the slop out of the barrel channel and the sights .

For competition and safety the trigger pull cannot be lightened more than  4 and a half pounds nor should you eliminate the half cock notch .
The question is whether you want to do all this as it does effect the resaleablilty as some people do not like a gun that has been monkeyed with .You can shim the barrel with paper or masking tape as an experiment especially under the tang to see if that brings some improvement .

Sometimes if your musket is shooting noticeably to the right that is an indicator of a really nasty trigger pull .
You mentioned 18'' groups. I am guessing you were shooting off the bench .Like any other gun that shoots a cylindro-conical bullet muskets have definite preferences .If you were developing a load for a cartridge gun you would be trying different bullets and loads . The patched round ball is much more forgiving, fewer variables.

Minie rifles that left the armory were well made and inspected for uniformity .The original barrels had progressive depth rifling, deeper groves at the breech getting shallower towards the muzzle. I understand that Parker -hale followed this rifling pattern in their repos ,Colt's repos may have in addition to the gain twist rifling they had .I know Dan Whitacre makes his custom barrels with progressive depth .He also relines barrels  with original style liners .  Mr Hoyt makes good minie barrels also from all accounts but uses a different rifling style . Both make replacement barrels to fit most of the replicas in addition to barrels of the original profile.  

Progressive depth rifling  helps true up the bullet after the skirt was blown into the deeper grooves swedging it back to a truer form .That initial upset bumps up the bullet to bore diameter ,engages the rifling and hopefully makes a good gas tight seal all at the same time .The balance of the replicas do not have progressive depth rifling  from everything I have read and  from the knowledgeable good shooters I have talked to .That is one of the reasons they get fussy they need just the right bullets to walk that fine line .The replicas are not true to the original system
Most reenactors shoot blanks so it is less of an issue with them and they are a significant part of the market .
Some guns that were extensively shot with blanks by  CW reenactors can have excessive breech erosion which can also be a problem. Sometimes the erosion grabs part of the skirt and stays near the breech while the rest of the bullet goes on its merry crooked way.

 Trash can bullets are popular as they are less fussy but are not stable out beyond a hundred yards and sometimes a bit less.The ballistically knowledgeable here could tell you why .I found for my own use the  Hodgdon bullet is good to 100 without to much wind but for anything windy I go to my thin skirted  Int'l Rapine.Skirt thickess is also important .If too thin it will grab the rifling ok but as it leaves the muzzle if the pressure is too high the skirt will get deformed but the escaping gases .This is a function of both powder charge ,pressure at the muzzle and barrel length .If it is too thick and does not flare into the grooves you get gas cutting and no spin .Bummer

 While most  every rifle ,unless the bore is not uniform ,can be tuned to shoot with the right bullet ,powder charge and granulation the search can be frustrating . Currently I shoot an extensively rebuilt Italian springfield with a progressive depth rifling in Whitacre barrel with a 1-72 twist that duplicates the armory pattern as the search frustrated me as well . I short cut much of the issue and went to a custom barrel. I had to re-bed it as the Whitacre barrel was so much thinner that the Italian barrel and I had to take up quite the barrel channel slop .I had to get different barrel bands as well as one thing lead to another .While it shoots just fine not a thing of beauty. Later I friend of mine gave me an original lock which I had Jim Westburg tune .It isn't 4 and a half pounds of pull but it is clean and safe .More acraglas fixed that too.        

Last spring at the local mothers day shoot there was a guy who had just bought an dark original '63 springfield at Cabela's .The bore was rough  and pitted .He too had a bunch of those lee minies he had just bought , probably the same pattern you have a mold for BH, and  that  rifle shot very well right to the sights first time . Some guys have all the luck .He said paid a 125 dollars for it. Like Lon Grifle I didn't have any luck with the lee traditional or improved  minies either.

In the end I found it very worth while learning a great deal in the process.
 You might concider trying 3f as well before you give up on that particular bullet

  
  
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 03:28:36 AM by stuart cee dub »

jim moore

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2010, 02:07:18 PM »
On my 63 Springfield I had no grind the width of the sear spring to lighten up the trigger pull, the spring was just to strong.


IanMor

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2010, 12:27:17 AM »
On the topic of powder loads. I have several .58s. All Enfield patterns. I find I am the "preeminantly knowledgeable one" on the topic of shooting these beasts. (owing to the fact I know almost no one who shoots these "live").
I have typically used the old Federal Army load of 60 grains FF in a paper cartridge. I get reasonable results after sizing my Minne' balls to .577 for my Parker Hale repop. From what you guys are posting here, I may be off base in my load, in both quantity and powder grade.

Are today's powder and load measurements somehow different than those of the 1860s? Please enlighten me.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2010, 12:27:58 AM by IanMor »

Offline stuart cee dub

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2010, 06:40:56 AM »
The Federals actually increased the spec'ed load load on their paper cartridges to 65 grains later in the war Ian. The quality of the powder as the war progressed actually became poorer and dirtier .Also loading a muzzleloader with a paper cartridge without spilling under combat stress could not have helped much either . Ironically the powder from the quality of the powder the South's Georgia powder making plant was making was really quite excellent .I am lead to understand that the powder used was more coarse as well ,larger grains .
 
The reason that a lot of modern shooters have gone to 3fg is it shoots cleaner and burns more quickly thus providing that initial bump the minie needs to expand into the rifling The traditional 2 fg 60 grn, load works in my musket but three fg goes a bit further making a pound of powder last a bit longer as well .For target shooting lighter loads spare the shoulder .

Powder quality was uneven even as it is today.
DuPont made powder then but who remembers Hazard's powder? They were a huge manufacturer back then .
Or how about more recently .....Anyone used Elephant powder?Curtis and Harvey? How does GOEX compare with Swiss? .
Anyone try the low cost Chinese powder?  ;). Some cannon shooters can use it .
 Perhaps some of our more knowledgeable members can expand on this .
The powder we use now days is for the most part glazed  .

Were powders used in the 1860's unglazed? What effect would that have on fouling ?

« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 04:59:18 AM by stuart cee dub »

IanMor

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2010, 07:19:11 AM »
Stuart,
Thanks for the reply. So in modern Minne' shooting, the increased grain load is a personal development to better suit one's particular rifle?

Just got done sizing a large batch of P-H patter Minne' balls. Waiting for deer season!

Regards,
Ian

Offline stuart cee dub

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2010, 08:08:34 AM »
Try the 3 fg sometimes it works.And try varying the  the load .
My musket tolerated heavy loads and maintained good accuracy for deer hunting not so much different from my target load .
It was been my experience( and more importantly others as well )that pretty much all rifles like a particular load and may be two . It has to do with harmonics and other variables,if you have a ball mold tryout all the systematic variables you can think of.

P-h rifles are prized and like heavier bullets .One of the best shooters , I know Jim Jasoviack aka '' Pevine'' of Iowa  uses a three band Parker to great effect and uses 3 fg with a heavy minie  ball .
No one has shot out the barrel of a musket trying different loads .Indifferent  cleaning has killed more barrels that leaden projectiles.

Daryl

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2010, 05:06:03 PM »
One fellow at Heffley Creek rondy, uses and has used a 3 band PH Enfield with 560gr. PH minnie for all the ctg. events, including the 'Quigley' shoot.  Mind you, the Quigley is shot at around 750 yards.  "Merlin" does very well and will put 10 up or out there into a smaller overall group than most others, however has yet to 'win' the event.  His load is 85gr. 2f and the English Minnie.

Mike OTDP

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2010, 06:31:54 AM »
I'd suggest heading over to the N-SSA board and asking around.  Rifle-muskets shoot, but they can be quite fickle. 

60 grains is a heavy load, most of us are shooting ~40 grains of 3F Goex. 

Daryl

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2010, 06:18:30 PM »
If 60gr. is heavy, what's 85gr.?  The minnie has to get to 750 yards for the Quigley match & be coming down at less than a vertical line.  With the 85gr. charge, he can use the sight settings on the rifle - fairly closely.

IanMor

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2010, 04:56:37 AM »
I recently acquired the heavy P-H minne mould. I cast and sized up a bunch last week. I'm hoping to go out next weekend and try a few loads. 85 grains? Wow, I bet that's a stout round! I cant wait to see how it shoots out of my P-H 3 band.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 04:58:26 AM by IanMor »

Gary

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2010, 07:47:22 AM »
I have Parker-Hale Enfields and use a Parker-Hale mold.  My minies aren't sized and I lube them with SPG and shoot them with 60 grains FF.

IanMor

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2010, 11:35:07 PM »
I just got back from throwing some PH minnies this afternoon. Out of my PH rifle they shot real well. 80 grains of FFF was brutal! I dropped it back to 60 and it was much more pleasant to shoot.

I also did a windage sight in on my original Tower I have been restoring. I was doping the windage prior to soldering the front sight on. It seemed to reall like the PH ball as well. However I have to get another sizing die. The .576 was too tight.

Daryl

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2010, 01:10:00 AM »
Ian - .576" bullet should have .0005" clearance around the bullet to the bore in a true .577.  The closer it is to bore size, the more accurate any slug is. The more it has to expand, (the smaller they are compared to the bore size) the greater the probability of the slug tipping and exanding off-centre - when is why round balls usually shoot more accurately from the .58's, .577's included.

IanMor

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2010, 06:15:56 AM »
Daryl,
Yeah, I understand that. Problem is my "original" Has been relined by Whitacres with a .575 tube, and the sizer I have now is .576 it's a tight fit unless I want to clean it every 2 or 3 shots.  The .576 is perfect for my PH.

You could tell a decided difference in felt recoil between the 2 rifles!

Daryl

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Re: ACW Minee ball shooting
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2010, 10:00:35 PM »
Daryl,
Yeah, I understand that. Problem is my "original" Has been relined by Whitacres with a .575 tube, and the sizer I have now is .576 it's a tight fit unless I want to clean it every 2 or 3 shots.  The .576 is perfect for my PH.

You could tell a decided difference in felt recoil between the 2 rifles!

Interesting bore size.  My Italian Enfield has a .574" bore.  The first ball I tried in it was .575', my norm for all the .58's I've had, military H&A or the Hawken.  The .575" ball will sit on top of the muzzle by itself.  I bought a DC .562" mould from Track and it casts both cavities the same at .565"x .570". They are out of round .005". I use a .018" patch and they load nicely, and shoot very accurately - 1 1/2" to 2" at 50 yards for 5 shots, which I feel is quite fair for a 24" bl and military sights.  If I hunker down, it will shoot to the lower mentioned size or a bit smaller.  I use 75gr. 2F, which gives 1,308fps from my rifle.  Lyman's book indicates I would need something like 115gr. to get 1,300fps.