I am going to have a 34" tapered octagon barrel made for a Hawken in 58 caliber but now I'm undecided on the twist rate.
Originally, I was going to use 1 in 44" or 48" as I plan on mostly using bullets like the T/C Maxi-ball, Maxi-hunter, the Lee R.E.A.L. , or a minie and maybe an occasional PRB.
Earlier today I got conflicting info from two barrel makers . Its as if no one can agree on anything.
The first barrel maker said to definitely use a 1 in 30" or 1 in 32" with shallow rifling and NOT to use PRB's, and the second maker told me to use a 1 in 48" for both up untill 1 in 66".
The second maker also said that accuracy will be decent. Now a friend of mine says that the 58 cal with under 90 grains will have a trajectory like I'm trying to lob something similar to a mortar, and if I crank it up to about 120 grains the recoil will be like a 458 Win.
When the rifle is finished it should weigh around 9.5 to 10 lbs. I want to use the rifle for hunting deer & bear in western Maryland.
I would greatly appreciate hearing from members who are more experienced in this kind of stuff!
Thanks!
Martin
Complex subject.
Some folks are really hung up on bullets.
If you simply MUST have a bullet gun the easiest way is to have buy a Green Moutain 45 caliber CARTRIDGE barrel and use a 300-350 grain FLAT POINT bullet sized or cast to BORE size .449-.450". I think its a poor idea but it will work so long as you keep the muzzle pointed up. Also note that the bullets ML will shoot 1 mile + at 45 degree angle or so. The heavy bullets at 1250-1350 fps will shoot to 3500 yards. Not a good idea for any populated area.
But....
Much of this comes from the modern mindset invading the ML world. Most likely comes from the hype produced by people trying to sell new and improved conicals to people or gun writers/editors trying to keep advertisers happy. And it really is hype with little real facts involved at least none of the negative ones.
Having shot or seen shot a considerable number of various big game animals with just about any class of firearms one can think up I can assure you that there is very little difference in killing power WITH PROPER SHOT PLACEMENT on deer sized animals unless using something like a 25-06 with a light bullet. But this destroys a lot of meat.
At BP velocities bullet energy as used in modern HV ballistics is IRRELEVANT to killing power.
The traditional Hawken rifle buttstock is not fit for bullets over a 270 grains round or otherwise. At the ranges a ML is used at a 270 gr RB at BP velocity will kill better ON AVERAGE than a conical. Actually it will likely kill about as well since with proper shot placement the animal will die in about 10-20 seconds generally on its feet no matter what its shot with.
William Drummond Stewart, hunting in the 1830s American west stated that it was easier to know down an elk with his 20 bore Manton than a deer.
The elongated projectile was well known by the 1830s in America. Yet the Rb hung on for hunting.
Several reasons. The Minie ball as originally designed is useless for hunting several reasons and most apply to ANY modern "naked" conical/bullet.
The Minie used in its original twist is very marginally stable and seldom tracks straight after striking man or beast. It was limited to about 1000 fps due to its large hollow base. From the stand point of the hunter it was essentially useless. It was meant to be used on a target 6 feet tall and about 2 wide. Many game animals have VERTICAL kill zones less than 24 inches and often less than 12.
The modern conical suffers from some of the same problems. The most serious are safety related.
The Minie ball was a loose fit in the bore and would not stay on the powder with the muzzle down. Thus no general issue minie ball carbine for the Cavalry.
The modern "naked" conical has the same problem to a greater or lesser degree. Seat a Maxi-Ball on the powder and carry the rifle muzzle down while walking and/or let it get jiggled or bumped and the bullet may very well move off the powder.
The maxi-ball has a dismal record as a hunting bullet. I read an account on a web site of a man's wife shooting a deer through and through side to side in the kill zone with one and then killing the deer THE NEXT season and finding the healed wound. Elmer Keith wrote of the same thing with a Coyote he shot with a 257 Roberts so its not unheard of.
If loaded to a velocity to give a 100-125 yard point blank on deer the pressures get very high and this results in nipple erosion and even broken lock parts in some cases if the mainspring is weak.
The answer to some of these problems was the cloth patched picket bullet. It will not slide off the powder and is capable of good velocity in fact in often DEMANDS IT. The best load in my 48" twist 40 cal to date is 80 grains of FF Swiss. Its good enough accuracy wise to hunt with. BUT for any kind of accuracy one of these is needed.
or a complete false muzzle. The False Muzzle was INVENTED, according to Chapman, for the picket. To load one puts the powder down the barrel, then places a patch on the muzzle well centered. Then push a picket bullet
into the starter, seat it over the muzzle (barrel and starter a perfect fit) and then carefully press the bullet into the muzzle.
Compared the RB its a PITA. But the 140 grain picket would make the 40 into a better deer rifle, except for the nipple erosion and the complexity of loading.
The most efficient way to increase the effectiveness of the ML hunting rifle is to increase bore size.
A one ounce round ball (16 to the pound) is a better killer than a one ounce Maxi-ball (54 caliber weighs 440 grains, .662 RB 437 grains). The RB can be shot hard. James Forsythe in the "Sporting Rifle and Its Projectiles" that his short barreled 14 bore rifle using a 15 to the pound ball would drive a hardened lead ball through an Indian Elephant's head from side to side with 5 drams (137.5 grains) of powder.
I have always gotten 30" plus penetration from 50-54-58 RBs on deer. Large bones can change this. But any of these will kill elk easily with PROPER shot PLACEMENT. You miff the shot on most game and the caliber used may not make any difference. The 50 caliber is a near ideal deer caliber.
If you MUST use a bullet you need a rifle like a Rigby rifle of the 1840s-1870s with a rifling pitch around 24 to 32", a GOOD patent breech properly fitted, a platinum lined nipple (or several stainless steel nipples or many carbon steel nipples since these last are only good for 10 shots with heavy bullets as found in long range shooting) and a bullet mould of the weight you want to shoot.
The recoil characteristics of the typical American rifle stock design of the post 1820 period (and most before this) simply is not designed for heavy recoil. Even a .62 RB is not much fun in a Hawken style rifle.
For a one ounce bullet or ball shooting enough powder for a flat trajectory the stock needs to look like this.
In fact this style rifle, what the 1/2 stock Hawken grew out of, in 16 or 20 bore is very effective and I would greatly prefer this rifle for ONE SHOT on any North American game to any thing less than one of the modern medium bores, .338 or bigger. WITHIN ITS RANGE. Its very effective and shoots hardened lead balls, soft lead or paper cartridges to the same point to about 90 yards (as far as I have shot the unpatched paper cartridge loads). It weighs about as much as my 54 Hawken style rifle and while it makes more recoil its less bruising than the crescent butt Hawken.
Basically you would be better served with a 54 or 58 caliber Hawken twisted 48 or slower and using a patched RB. It is simply not possible for me to believe that you would have any reason to not be pleased with a 54-58 caliber rifle shooting a RB. But if you want to shoot hardened RBs I would recommend the rifling grooves be much wider than the lands. Wide lands will not work well, load easily, with hardened balls.
But its America and people can and will do what they please. But I would suggest that you find Forsythe's book, I think its downloadable from google books, and read it. What he states in relation to trajectories and killing power is 100% correct based on current experience. His internal ballistic science is early 19th century and has holes in it. I believe the first edition was published in 1860. Its a classic and required reading for anyone hunting with a ML rifle.
Another excellent couple of pages exist in John Taylor's "Pondoro". Its near the end of the chapter 5 on Elephant and details his use of a 10 bore smooth bore to kill Elephant when his normal ammunition supply was not delivered in the 1930s. He killed 13 good bulls and several Rhino before running out of hardened RBs. He was killing African Elephant with chest shots using 6 drams of powder. He stated he never lost an animal shot with the old gun.
His worry in using it was the fact that he felt, rightly, that it was not capable of stopping a charge by heavy game like elephant.
If a .80 caliber RB will kill African Elephant weighing 8000-12000 pounds with 25% of the ball weight as a powder charge thinking a 50-58 is inadequate for a 300-600 pound animal is simply silly. It is also interesting to note than experienced hunters in Africa and India invariably used hardened ROUND BALLS for heavy game. This only changed with the coming of the self-contained cartridge.
Taylor sums it up as well as anyone I have ever heard and is 100% correct in saying:
"Men with their modern breech-loaders and repeaters are all too much inclined to sneer at the muzzle-loader. But a good muzzle-loader, properly handled, is a very deadly and effective weapon--provided its limitations are fully realized."
Dan
