Hawken Slant Breech Inletting Problem

[Majorjoel]

I picked up a pretty old Hawken pre carve set that had been in a friends closet since 1972. It is one of those with most of the inletting done, which I detest but the price was more than fair. The very massive barrel is a Bill Large 36"x 1 1\8" in 54 cal. I was thinking with all of the interesting talk recently about building chunk guns that this piece might get me into the over the log type shooting. The barrel and tang fit together well with just a bit of loose slop that goes back and forth not side to side. When placed into the stock inlets the heavy barrel settles square to the bottom flat but pushes the tang back, leaving a small 1\4" gap at the lower joint. I've tried bending the tang outward with no luck. I am kind of reluctant to do any more wood removal behind the tang due to this kits pre carved lock bolt locations. This is my first experience with a slant breech set up, if it were straight it would be a done deal. I have also thought about removing wood in the barrel channel from the forward section in hope of getting the barrel to swing upward just that little 1\4".  I'm hoping some of you Hawken builders will give me some ideas here before I go and mess things up.   

[Majorjoel]

[Harnic]

Joel, I built a Track fullstock flint Hawken 5 years ago which uses a slant breach, a method I like very much.  Judging by what I'm seeing in your pictures you need to bend the tang "flatter", right behind the hook recess.  By the looks of things it should be a simple inletting from there.  It's often easier to inlet the barrel/tang assembly as one, so either soft solder or superglue the tang & breachplug together to get the best fit when inletting  As far as misplaced screw holes, they don't show after it's built, so just glue doweling in them to plug & re-drill where they need to be.  Have fun!  

[Dphariss]

Glue the tang the the breech with good epoxy, JB weld or Acra-glas.
Then bend as needed and inlet it. Keep the bending pressure of the glued joint.
The tang likely has too much bend and needs to be straightened to fit the stock.

Dan

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Inletting that breech and tang can be aggravating for sure.  From your photos, I can see that the tang is humped up too much.  I would do as your previous advisors have suggested...but I'd soft solder the tang to the plug, ONCE IT IS FIT PERFECTLY.  Then I'd take a little of that hump out of the tang just back of the plug, and see how it fits into your stock.  You can always inlet the tang into the wrist a little deeper, but you likely cannot move it back...more gaps will show up where the waist narrows in the back end of the tang.
Once that is all done, if there are gaps, bed the breech with AcraGlas from Brownell's.  Use a tooth brush to apply shoe polish to the assembled barrel, breech, and tang, let it dry, and lay in your AcraGlas.  Colour it with some of the brown dye, and a tiny bit of the black. 
A note on your hooked breech.  There can be no play fore and aft.  The hook must hold that barrel securely, or it will bounce forward on recoil, and increase the play in the metal to metal.  Also, accuracy will be lousy.
Hawken rifles are fun.  I've built close to two hundred of them over the years, and swore I'd never do another.  'Til I built that full stocked rifle for Hatchet Jack Bradford.  Now I have all the stuff together for a half stocked .62 cal for m'self.  They're beautiful in their own way.

[A.Merrill]

    It's great to see somebody building a Hawken. I have always had a love for them. People here just don't talk much about them. They are longrifles and they played a big part in our history. Keeps us filed in on how things are going and more pic's. There are a few of us here that like Hawkens.     GOOD LUCK      AL

[Dave B]

Captjoel,
Its time to get some heat on that tang with the torch to get that kink out just a bit. It wont take much but the advice given is right on about fitting the tang to the barrel for the inlet by solder or by super glue. I saw one example of a guy using a screw to hold the tang inplace on the barrel. He drilled and tapped the hole from the back side of the standing breach into the bottom area of the pattent breach using a counter sunk 6-32. I guess to each his own but the soft solder worked just fine for me. I tinned both surfaces and then flowed the solder to the joint after heating both surfaces. A piece of cake.

[Dphariss]

The hump will disappear to a great extent once the breech and tang are properly mated. Then is the time to decide what it really needs.
As Taylor pointed out play in the breech is bad. A friend with a slant breeched rifle I built with a lock screw for the breech reports much better accuracy with the screw in place.
Its really scary. Seen him shoot 15 shots at 60 yards though a hole in the backing that would just accept my thumb. 45 caliber GM barrel.
Dan

[Majorjoel]

Thank you guys for your help in getting this barrel breech and tang to lay in straight. My first step will be to bend the tang out flatter from the  forward "hump". I will then solder it to the barrel and inlet it into the stock as a single unit. This project is my first stab at the true Hawken style rifle. It is definatley very different from what my minds early concepts of what a Hawken gun is like. I recently bought a copy of J. Baird's book "Hawken Rifles The Mountain Man's Choice". It shows many great pictures of originals and also shows a few important break downs of the barrel breech and trigger assemblys, out of the stock. Both of those tang bolts are drill & tapped into the long trigger plate. I will take my time and study closely as I go with this and will for sure report back here on the forum with my progress. The most important things I have learned over several years of building KY's......Patience is virtue, always plan things out carefully, measure many times before cutting once, and there are no dumb questions! Never hesitate to ask my good friends here on the great ALR! I'm humbly in your debt...........Joel

[heinz]

I soft solder the slant breech and tang together for the final inletting. Dan's epoxy would work also but I do not know how hard it is to remove.

[rich pierce]

Hawkens are a difficult build and moreso with a precarve, getting the tang and the curve of the trigger bar to match the precarve stock is sometimes painful.  I'd take it slow so you don't end up losing mass through the wrist inadvertantly when matching wood and metal up.

[Majorjoel]

Ya Rich, I know when a precarve comes with the lock mortice mostly inletted, trouble usually follows. I plan to get the barrel\breech\tang secure in the stock, then get the lock inletted. Making sure the lock to barrel geometry (hammer to nipple strike) comes out perfect. This will all be followed up with trigger installation. I will not do the barrel staple lugs or the tang screw installments until these working mechanical aspects are all in line.

[keweenaw]

If your patent breech plug fits appropriately to the standing breech there should be no movement what so ever in any direction when the mating surfaces are touching.  If you are getting any movement you need to do some serious peening or welding up of the hook or recess.  Taylor discussed this in his post, I'm just reiterating the absolute necessity of a movement free fit if the piece is to have any accuracy and to eliminate the shooting loose that will happen if there is movement.

Tom

[BJH]

Epoxy is easy to remove. Just heat to 250 or so drgrees the joint breaks right down, and the degraded epoxy scrapes right off. I my opinion it's easier than solder, and cleaning off solder..

[Harnic]

Epoxy is easy to remove. Just heat to 250 or so drgrees the joint breaks right down, and the degraded epoxy scrapes right off. I my opinion it's easier than solder, and cleaning off solder..

I agree, but choose to use superglue as it's even easier to remove, and has proven strong enough for the task.

[Majorjoel]

Well, it took me some digging but I found my original post going back to when I started working on this project. I finally got er done and just wanted to say thanks to all of you great fellows who nursed me through several issues during the build. I have learned a lot with this one and also have changed my opinion completely regarding the Hawken plains rifle. It definatley deserves it's pedistal position in history (and price for an original). The change in my opinion came with the rifles first trip to the shooting range. All I can say is holy wow wow wow! This one really does shoot better than I do! I could really feel the POWER in my hands! I will never leave my first love of the flintlock longrifle for one of these, but I will always respect the Hawken rifle. Every gun builder should build at least one of these. You will learn many new four letter words that you never knew you knew!

[Majorjoel]

[Majorjoel]

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Congratulations Joel!  Your rifle turned out very nicely.  From the pictures, it appears to be a good representation of a Hawken rifle.
One question regarding the ramrod...is it longer that the barrel - sticks out at the muzzle?  Hawken's never did...always flush at the muzzle.  If you leave it sticking out at the muzzle, you'll broom it off sooner or later.  

[Majorjoel]

Ya Taylor, I gave it an extra couple of inches so it won't get lost down bore when the rifle is not loaded. I have always hated that ramrod "stick out" thing but will put up with it until I lap it off one of these days.....probably while putting it in a case.  Ask me how I know how it will happen!

[eddillon]

I prefer to use accraglas over the super glue.  Accraglas is stronger.  Super glue tends to creep into the metal and places you don't want it to be.  I usually discover that after I have started rust browing.  I know I scraped all of the super glue off the surface, but....  I use a propane torch to warm the glued area and the parts easily separate.  The heated epoxy is easily scaped away after it has cooled.  I have used this method on tang/breech and frizzen to pan.  Great way to insure that pan and frizzen are perfectly aligned for drilling the hinge bolt.
Ed Dillon

[A.Merrill]

    I can't help it, every time I look at a Hawken I want to build one. You did a fine job on that one, looks great. Thanks for the pic's.    AL

[KLMoors]

Real nice looking Hawken. I'm in the middle of working through the problems with a pre-carved Hawken myself. LOL   

[JB2]

Joe;, do you have more pics of your Hawken?  You're waaaaay ahead of me, so I'm just looking for more inspiration.

[frogwalking]

I built an operating model steam engine 20 years ago, supergluing the various parts together.  It is still workable, so I am not too sure how suceptable to heat superglue might be.  Maybe it softens at a temp considerably higher than steam.