Bethlehem School

[LURCHWV@BJS]

  Do we have any builders that follow this particular school?  And may I see a pic or two?

   Rich

[Nate McKenzie]

My favorite. Here are a few I've built.

[Curtis]

Some real mighty fine tasting eye-candy there, Nate!!!!

[rich pierce]

The man is working a mother-lode!

[Tom Currie]

Rich, The Bethlehen school first coined by Joe Kindig has since evolved into a couple different schools. As Bethlehem was founded by the Moravians there has come to be the early Moravian Christian's Spring rifles and also the classic Northhampton ( later Allentown ) rifles made by the Neihardt ,Molls and Rupp's  to name a few principles. You will find this a favorite of many of us here ( especially Nate  )

[LURCHWV@BJS]

  I can see why.  I've been checking out different stock shape and the ones attributed to the Bethlehem School really appeal to me.  Until I can get the RCA book I can only get ideas from the  few that I see here.  There are stocks that bare simalarites.  I have noticed these have a lower comb.( I think I'm calling it by the rioht name.)  Also a lower buttstock.  Have become smitten with them.  I think I will chase this School.

  Rich

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Rich, you seem to have a propensity for picking difficult builds.  There are nuances on these charming rifles that are difficult to get right, and until you've had an opportunity to study a few GOOD ones (like at Dixon's for example) keep the dreaming in your mind and not on the bench.  Stay with something with simple straight beautiful lines like a York or Lancaster rifle, until you have some experience and accumulated skill under your belt.
Or, run off at full tilt and let the chips fall where they may.

[Don Getz]

Nate.....how did you get so screwed up......you must adore Allen Martin.   Now for you  Hutch, here we go again.    If you
would take a survey among all the builders on this forum I think they would all,  or most, would agree this is not the way to go.   A good Lehigh county rifle is not an easy build, as Taylor said.   Also, you would find after building it you would
ask yourself "why did I do this".  Another thing, I have met you and you don't want to build a gun with a 15" trigger pull,
14" at the very max.  You have to look at more guns, pick them up and aim with them, then kind of formulate a plan.  Talk
to some of the shooters, find out what is more pleasant to shoot.....I don't mean calibre, I mean style of gun...........Don

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Don, you've said a mouthful there.  For a shooting rifle, it's hard to beat a Beck.  They just fit without having to adjust yourself.  And they will handle big calibres without bruising your face or shoulder.

[LURCHWV@BJS]

Or, run off at full tilt and let the chips fall where they may.

  Taylor,
  New approach,  I believe a little more listening on my side is in order.
 I also like the Lancaster. It was my second choice. Was Beck in this School?

   I would like to Study one builder as much as possible. Besides Don seems to agree with you. I am Hoping to find a good Lancaster in Kit form and work up from there.

   Any suggestions?

  Thanx
  Rich

[Mike Brooks]

Have become smitten with them.  I think I will chase this School.

I have been building ML's for 30 years and still don't feel I'm skilled enough to do one.

[Nate McKenzie]

Lurch- Although I love Lehigh [Allentown-Bethlehem] Rifles they are not easy to build right. Having seen your work, I really think you need to do a really good kit next. One of the best kits I ever built is the Chambers York County kit in 50 cal.  One of the best balanced, comfortable shooting, and accurate guns I have ever owned and easy to build.  Here's mine but this gun looks good even without carving.

http://www.flintlocks.com/

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I believe Beck is of the Lebanon School, but the lines of the butt are straightish and form a triangle, similar to those of the lancaster and York schools.  I've handled the Chambers' york rifle and it is very nice indeed.
I believe Don Getz has a precarved Isaac Haines stock that would make into a nice rifle for you.  That's another popular and good fitting rifle stock.

[California Kid]

Lebanon county was a part of Lancaster county at one time, hence perhaps the similar architecture. Just a thought. However, they do make a comfortable shooting rifle!

[Don Getz]

Lurch.........While you may not want to spend the money, the Early Lancaster rifle kit that Jim Chambers sell would be the
ideal gun for you.   It is a typical lancaster gun......straight comb, straight underline on the buttstock, a rather robust gun,
wide buttplate, and a bit longer length of pull than I like, probably about 14".    Am not quite sure what they sell for but,
to build any gun, by the time you buy a good swamped barrel, siler lock, piece of wood, have some woodwork done (barrel inlet, shaping) and all the other hardware you will have $600-$700 tied up.  Not sure what the Chambers kit sells
for but you have to realize that with that kit, everything is positioned and partially inlet.....all the architecture is there.
One of the best guns I own was done from a basic chambers early lancaster..........done by Bob Harn, an outstanding gun
and sought after by several good collectors.   So, in other words, while you may look down your nose at a kit gun, it is
what you do with it from that point on that turns it into a great gun.............Don

[smallpatch]

Lurch,

Couldn't agree more with Don and Taylor.  A Lehigh is definitely one of the most difficult builds to pull off.  NOT a first or second build by any stretch.
I also agree about a Chamber's Lancaster "kit".  I've built several.  They are very user friendly, architecturally correct, and you end up with a !@*%&@ fine rifle when you're done.
Do something like that first, get comfortable with what you're doing, and the shapes of lock panels, wrists, cheeks, forestocks, etc.,  then you'll be ready to move on to scratch builds.

Give yourself a break!!!

[Tom Currie]

Rich, A Lancaster build would be a good choice. If you're looking for a gunsmith to research , Jacob Dickert would be the guy to study. Lot's of documentation and pictures of his work in RCA 1  to study.

[M Tornichio]

Rich, For what it is worth. I thought when I first started out that I needed a 15" pull. And I built a rifle from a plank of wood and when I was finished the rifle looked like $#*!. I did not have the experience to adjust everything to make it look correct proportionally. The other issue that I had was that I really wanted to use the rifle for hunting. It felt fine to shoot the rifle and aim with it during the summer while wearing a t-shirt. However I was using it to hunt deer with in ohio. It is typically cold here in ohio during gun season and I found that I could not aim that rifle on several occasions because I had too many clothes on. I know for sure I missed many deer either from not getting my eyes lined up or not getting the rifle mounted and sighted in time. i now have settle on 13 1/2". I will have a table set up at the Log Cabin Fair this weekend. If you do make it up, stop by and say high. I will have several rifle that have trigger pulls from 13 to 13 5/8" You can try all of them out. They are not the style of rifle that you are wanting to build, but It will give you a good idea on length of pull. The guys here are definitely giving you good information on  staying away from a lehigh for your next build. Personally I would save for a chambers kit even if it takes twice as long to save up the money. You will have enough work in one of the kits that you will still feel. Like you accomplished something.
Good Luck,
Marc

[Ryan McNabb]

Lurch.........While you may not want to spend the money, the Early Lancaster rifle kit that Jim Chambers sell would be the
ideal gun for you.   It is a typical lancaster gun......straight comb, straight underline on the buttstock, a rather robust gun,
wide buttplate, and a bit longer length of pull than I like, probably about 14".    Am not quite sure what they sell for but,
to build any gun, by the time you buy a good swamped barrel, siler lock, piece of wood, have some woodwork done (barrel inlet, shaping) and all the other hardware you will have $600-$700 tied up.  Not sure what the Chambers kit sells
for but you have to realize that with that kit, everything is positioned and partially inlet.....all the architecture is there.
One of the best guns I own was done from a basic chambers early lancaster..........done by Bob Harn, an outstanding gun
and sought after by several good collectors.   So, in other words, while you may look down your nose at a kit gun, it is
what you do with it from that point on that turns it into a great gun.............Don

This is excellent advice.  Jim's Lancaster kit will teach you volumes about proper stock layout and architecture, and then you'll have a good pattern by your side as you attempt to build one from a blank.  Having done those two builds (a kit and a blank build) you'll be in much better shape to proceed into no man's land.  And even then I'd leave the Lehigh/Allentown stuff alone for many years.  I really almost never see these contemporary builds done well - they always get it wrong, and I mean by good makers.  Allen Martin is one of the rare exceptions who really gets the flavor of these incredibly tricky shapes and nails it every time.  It takes (as Napoleon Dynamite said) "awesome skills."

Perhaps you don't think you'll learn as much from a kit (which is really the wrong term for what Jim sells) but believe me there is a ton of gunmaking between the cardboard box and that first coat of stain.

[LURCHWV@BJS]

Thank you all,

  I have already contacted Jim( actuallyBarbie on the price)  I've decided to foolow the advice ot the people I admire.  Though two haven't chimed in  yet.  Was hoping to get a kit sooner but will have to wait.  Think while I'm waiting on a rifle kit I will try a pistol.  Really got the building bug bad.


   Rich

[bob in the woods]

just a thought, but I have spent many enjoyable hours with a piece of wood large enough to carve out a stock from the lock back. Inexpensive way to learn. I changed cheek profiles, narrowed wrists, etc and learned /tried inletting a lock without taking it apart as Mark Silver demonstrates on his excellent DVD.
First time stuff, like wire inlay is still done on one of my "Quaker " stocks . Saves a ton of money .
And, I get to try different things.
By the way, if working from a blank, I highly recommend that Mark Silver DVD. All work done with hand tools. Also, in more than 30 years of building guitars, one of the most important things I've learned is..patience!! Why is it that the first question most people ask me re instruments or rifles is" how long does it take to make one? "   Some things might take 2 hours one day, and 4 the next time. I move along, but never rush. Sometimes the wood just doesn't want to co-operate. Have fun!!
I bet you'll be thinking about forging parts next

[LURCHWV@BJS]

Already have

[LURCHWV@BJS]

Why is what I said in the quote box, and the quote in the white?


   Rich

[alex e.]

Cabin Creek Muzzleloading offers a Lehigh/schimmel on par with all the better made kits .  A .54 make a nice handling gun.

http://cabincreek.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4&Itemid=13

[Jerry V Lape]

Lurch, I started with a Chambers Isaac Haines which Jim Chambers and Don Getz showed me when they came to Phoenix years back.  I had no mentors and this group hadn't formed yet.  All the work was done with the simpliest hand tools, a lot of it on the kitchen table.  It came out great for a first gun and it is still in service as my elk rifle and one I use in teaching muzzleloading and hunter education classes.  Isaac Haines stock structure handles well in the field.  In .54 it is probably a little light in the barrel for target work, but makes a really nice field gun.  You will not regret building a Chambers kit.  It taught me a lot.