violin finish

[smylee grouch]

In James R. Johnston's book, Accouterments, there is a longrifle attributed to John Rupp-Jacob Kuntz on page 21. The text states that the rifle retains its original violin finish. What do they mean by that, color or actual finish of the wood or something else? Did the Allentown guns have more of one color stocks or were they mostly stained with AQF?   Gary

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I've seen several Kuntz guns, and they have an applied hard shiny varnish that has red pigment - like a violin.

[California Kid]

I believe tint was added to the varnish and the wood wasn't stained. Dragons blood, etc. The English Fowler's to my knowledge were done the same way.

[Tim Crosby]

 Would it be a French polish? Although I wouldn't think it would work well on a stock.

 Tim C.

[skillman]

I believe that you can find a tutorial on violin finish by Jack Brooks at this site.
http://www.jsbrookslongrifles.com/theclassroom.htm

Steve

[keweenaw]

Violin varnish can either be oil based or spirit based with  the oil based varnishes being preferable for stock finish.  I have a Stapleton rifle from Huntingdon Co. that has Stapleton's frequently used black violin varnish on it.  This finish is still in good condition (not crazed or chipped) after 150 years or whatever so I don't think we can make any blanket statements about a violin varnish not being good for a stock. 

Tom

[Ryan McNabb]

I don't if anyone has done proper destructive laboratory analysis of these famous red finishes.  Jack's famous rifle with the much beloved red finish used polyurethane varnish colored with dyes of some kind. 

I have built violins and worked in violin shops and most instruments have a very soft finish that will not take much abuse.  I'm not sure, just because it seems to be a colored varnish finish, that "violin finish" is the correct term, and people may be allowing tunnel vision to take them down the wrong path.  It's not difficult to use alkanet root or dragon's blood to color oil or spirits and make finishing products from them.

This is not my area - I speak Virginian - but still, the phrase violin finish is used and I think it is possibly leading people astray.  But perhaps I'm wrong - perhaps there is a known connection between these makers and a particular finish technique similar enough to instrument finishes to merit the term.  Sorta kinda doubt it, though.

[bgf]

No one seems to have known that Jack Brooks' red rifle was finished with polyurethane until he wrote an article about it, so I don't see a problem with using it . 

[Jim Kibler]

No one seems to have known that Jack Brooks' red rifle was finished with polyurethane until he wrote an article about it, so I don't see a problem with using it . 

The biggest concern I have with dyes are their light fastness.  I've done a few experiements with  them by staining or tinting wood and placing them in the sun with half covered.  It didn't take too long before I saw fading.  I'm told that red in particular is bad for this.  My tests were not very exhaustive, but what I saw has sort of scared me away.  This is not to say that some types under the right circumstances couldin't  be effective. 

[bgf]

That is a good point about fading, Jim.  On the other hand, I don't know if there is any way to get the same effect other than tinting a varnish.  There are some UV resistant varnishes for marine use that might help, but I don't know what they are made of or if they would easily accepted.

[Acer Saccharum]

I have stained wood with Dragon's blood and shellac mix. It seems very light resistant, as I have had a sample in my front window for over two years. DB dissolves in alcohol. Kremer Pigments carries it.

tom

[Mark Elliott]

I have played around with the 1704 recipe for actual Violin Varnish as used by instrument makers and available to period gunmakers.     It is certainly fast and easy to apply and harder than oil.   I used seed lac as the base and mine came out dark amber without any additional coloring.   It would leave a yellow tint on bare wood much like linseed oil.   Adding Dragons Blood, you get a very unsatisfying pink on top of bare maple.   The same result on horn.   You get a better result on both horn and maple using the red (with Dragons Blood) violin varnish over top of AQ.   It gives you a reddish brown color.   On a white horn, it looks like rust.    I am not crazy about a final spirit varnish finish on rifles, but I think that using the violin varnish, colored or not would be a good sealer before applying the oil.  It would drastically speed up the finishing process and be more water resistant to boot. 

[Birddog6]

Back in 1978-79, I refinished a violin for my dad that he had for a long time. I went to see an old man in downtown Columbus (OH) that owned a repair place & his name was Richmond or Richmand. Anyway he was in his late 80's then and he had a good sized place there & had repaired violins & cellos & etc. his whole live & was quite famous as a stringed instrument repairman & known authority of such for many symphonies world wide.  

He sold me a finish for this violin called Spiritshellac and at that time a 1 oz bottle of it cost $ 30. which to me was highway robbery, but I bought it.  Seems like he told me it came from Germany or Austria.   Also it required a very find hair brush to apply & it was thin & wide & you brushed it with special care not to overlap as the finish was tinted a reddish color & if you overlapped it you had dark stripes & had to rub the stripe out & etc.  It was VERY tedious to apply & more ya put on the more reddish brown it got.  When the required color was obtained you went one shade darker, then rubbed it out with oil & rottenstone, then waxed & done.  I remember the finish in the bottle was strong smelling, reminded me of alcohol.  Even tho I had the stuff sealed up in the jar, 6 mo later I noticed the remaining had evaporated & I had just a little base residue left in the bottle.
The making of these varnishes  & finishes go back to the 1600's and 1700"s with may recipes.  This is an interesting read, gives the breakdowns of the finishes & also a breakdown if the dye ingredients used to make dif colors.
http://www.leroydouglasviolins.com/varnish.htm

Keith Lisle

[Ryan McNabb]

At the very first CLA show Wallace Gusler had a new rifle he'd just finished with a VERY red stock, stained with alkanet root.  This is also readily available and is soluble in both oil and spirit I believe.  Don't hear much about alkanet root.

[DutchGramps]

Alkanet root in boiled linseed oil was the standard treatment of gun stocks in the 19th century Dutch army; it gave a nice, brown finish. But alkanet in spirits resulted in a much redder color on walnut, that had to be finished with clear linseed oil.

[Captchee]

Interesting  topic
 I have always been of the opinion that a violin finish meant that a color  or tint was suspended in oils  sometimes over a base  stain . Sometimes not .
 When I did this under hammer  for chairslayer  a couple years back . that’s how I got the red color  to the maple .
 Not only was the maple  stained with  fortis but I used an  oil finish tented with Ox blood to get the   deep red

[Ryan McNabb]

OK - what's oxblood?  I know of the original paint pigment called oxblood, which was real blood, but I assume you mean something else?  Thanks.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Fiebing's leather dye has a colour called "oxblood."

[Stophel]

Other colorants can be used.  Oil varnish does well with tranparent-ish burnt siennas and other red pigments.  Madder was used, of course.  You get much more color this way.

[Waksupi]

I have built violins, and also used the finish on gun stocks. I always used orange shellac, and a light oil for a French Rub polish.

[Captchee]

Fiebing's leather dye has a colour called "oxblood."

yep and it alc. based to  a couple drops thin the oil nicely . i also dont find that it fades at all . least havent seen it in the test boards laying around the shop . but really one could probably use any red tinting and get much the same thing . just depends on how stead fast the tinting will remain

[longcruise]

Fiebing's leather dye has a colour called "oxblood."

I have a maple longbow I built a few years back and stained with green Feibings leather dye.  It showed considerable fading after four years and continues to fade more and more.  What I don't recall was what I put over the top of it?  Was in a polyurethane phase at that time!

yep and it alc. based to  a couple drops thin the oil nicely . i also dont find that it fades at all . least havent seen it in the test boards laying around the shop . but really one could probably use any red tinting and get much the same thing . just depends on how stead fast the tinting will remain

[Captchee]

again i have not seen that fading . even over  10 years . if anything the color deepens .
 but again i think it could depend on  whats used as an oil . cant say .. i could see it fade  if suspended  and with finish wear
as with all things others exsperiances my very .

 the gun i posted above is now ?? 3 years old .
 ill contact the owner and see if he has seen any  fading . but from what i  gather from  talks with he and his wife just a few months back . they have not .

 ill send of a E-mail as soon as i get home tonight

[Short Arm]

Cap, This is Lynn Weaving Welshman.Folks Cap build this under hammer for me a few years back. The stain or color has darken every year.  If you could see it in person you would love the rich aging look Cap got from his stain. It just get's better with age ,Cap like I have told you ,Great job Sir!!!
                    THE WEAVING WELSHMAN

[Captchee]

thank you short arm for the kind words and the response concerning the color