Urban Legend?

[t.caster]

An old friend of mine from the LongrifleSmiths Guild, whome I haven't seen in years, once built a Hawken/Plains Perc. rifle from a big old Bill Large .72 or .75 cal. barrel. Called it "Old Griz". Anyhow, the breechplug/hook was machined with enough thread clearance it could be removed BY HAND! It snugged up nice by hand to the witness mark and felt tight, but a light twist and out it came. He bought the setup from Large at Friendship yrs. ago. Large said the originals were made that way 'cause the Mt. men didn't have a vise handy to clean out their barrels if something got plugged up or wet and wouldn't fire. Is this an urban legend? I've built a couple Hawkens and don't remember reading anything like that in John Bairds books.

[Stan]

This may be true because it isn't unusual to find in early documents & histories that hunters occasionally have to "unbreach" their rifles when hunting because of a problem.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I too find it interesting.  Presently, I'm re-converting a half stocked English fowler by Bond, back to flint.  The outside of the barrel is perfectly polished but brown.  There is absolutely no rust, on the outside.  The breech plug is threaded 3/4" x 16, and the threads too are bright without oxidation, Yet the breech plug is almost a hand tightened fit.  There is no shoulder in the bore, for the end of the plug either - just the end of the journal coming to an abrupt and tight stop against the end of the barrel.  This gun saw lots of use as a percussion gun after it's life as a flinter, yet there is no gas cutting along the threads of the plug journal.  Perhaps we over-do it.

[jwh1947]

Man, I'd hate to offer advice such as this and then be entangled with a sad camper if/when he blows gas and burning soot into his eyes, which, you can't tell me won't happen, especially if it is "finger tight" to start and begins to loosen up.  Over time expect faster wear and subsequent problems.

[Roger Fisher]

Man, I'd hate to offer advice such as this and then be entangled with a sad camper if/when he blows gas and burning soot into his eyes, which, you can't tell me won't happen, especially if it is "finger tight" to start and begins to loosen up.  Over time expect faster wear and subsequent problems.

Man oh Man - on first impulse I was going to ask 'loosen up' Hmmm could she back out with that tang lug well fitted??  But I better not ask?      Just not intelligent enough to do so..

[Bill of the 45th]

Totally possible, we only need to unbreach a dozen or so guns, to prove the legend.  If all things are done to perfection, I see no reason that a breach plug couldn't be hand tight.  The hook would have no slop, and the barrel fit to stock would be close to zero tolerance, and the wedges would lock it all together.

Bill

[t.caster]

I'm with you Roger! How can the barrel or plug move enough to unscrew itself?? Oh sure there must be some  s m a l l  counter rotational torque caused by the ball rotation as it exits the barrel. But Ive never seen a bbl. rotate out of it's channel for any reason.
But that could be one of those spirits that cause me to miss now and then!

[James Rogers]

There are a few references I have from 18th century American documents concerning removal of the breech by the end user to remedy a spoiled load but I can't put my finger on them.

Here is an 18th century quote about removal of the breechplug as the best but not the simplest procedure for routine cleaning every 20 shots or so. This of course is discussing the end user (or lackey in most cases) and not a gunsmith.



The barrel should be washed at least after every eighteen or twenty fires, where the best sort of powder is used; but if the gunpowder is of an inferior sort, then the barrel will require the oftener washing. The best method of washing the barrel is, by taking out the britchpin; but as this can seldom be conveniently done, take the barrel out of the stock, and put the britch-end into a pail of warm water, leaving the touch hole open; then, with an iron rod, with tow or a bit of linen rag at the end, draw up and down in the syringe manner, till it is quite clean;

Edie, George, 1772. A Treatise on English Shooting.

[A.Merrill]

    What would keep the gas from cutting the threads? Has the threads been harden or would that help? Or have we been mistaken all this years     AL

[frogwalking]

Perhaps the lack of corrosion on some old guns is related to the material used in construction.  Today we tend to get wound around the axle requesting the strongest alloy steel available.  If I am not mistaken (which is entirely possible), most of the old guns were made primarily of iron.  In my lifetimes work in the design and construction of water and wastewater treatment plants, I have learned that iron pipe is much much more resistant to corrosion to rust than is steel pipe.  Cast or ductile iron pipe will last for well over a hundred years in use.  Steel can and often does rust through in 20 or 30. 

[Majorjoel]

I have unbreached quite a few original M\L's and for the most part had to soak them in pen. oil for a day or two prior. One of these barrels I remember was darn close to what Tom has described here. After a days soak, I vised it up and put the wrench to it. Giving it my usual super torque turn technique, I just about fell over the thing. Hard pull put on an easy turner. It opened up and gave way much easier than anything encountered before. As I remember the plug had a very long threaded end (over 1\2") and the barrel was a small 32 cal. percussion type. The inner and outer threads were very clean and shiney. Putting the plug back in only required a wrench for less than a quarter turn. I probably shot that piece more than 200 times before I sold it. It was a mule ear rifle made in New York state. It went to a collector from Texas who hung it up on the wall of his restaurant business, never to be shot again.

[keweenaw]

Strength isn't the issue on jamb fit vs. hand tight threading.  We've been making take down centerfire rifles that were/are designed to deal with pressures about 4 times what one can generate with a muzzle loader and these guns are safe even after the threads get loose from frequent barrel removal.  As for gas cutting, it would seem to me that unless the gas can completely escape on the first shot there isn't much gas flow to do any cutting and it the gas isn't flowing out any small initial pathways around the start of the threads are quickly plugged with fouling that won't be removed with any normal cleaning and will be so isolated that it won't be able to draw moisture and corrode the threads. 

Tom

[Acer Saccharum]

I recall that Kit Ravenshear like to have the plug removable by hand. It seems nutty to me.

But to over tighten, you are actually weakening the assembly, pre-stressing the threads as it were.  There is a balance to be struck between too loose and too tight.

[northmn]

I have seen pictures of a breech plug removal tool used by early gunsmiths, probably could have been used for installation also.  You cannot compare a modern barrel to a ML as the male threads tighten into the female on a modern gun due to pressure, but not on a ML.  An old military armorer told me that 50 cal barrels could be almost hand loosened because of this.  An original I had to unbreech came out pretty easy one I applied heat, but the threads were in excellent shape.  It also lines up pretty easy after removal.  I am willing to bet that some did it one way and some another, that it was not universal.

DP

[Levy]

I have a military jaeger rifle (ca. 1819) that has a hook breech system for a flintlock (is is now converted to a percussion).  The breechplug is about 3/4" of threads and it can be removed by hand.  I don't know if it was
intended to be that way or is worn.  I put a crescent wrench on the breechplugs of a couple of matchlock muskets from a ca. 1625 shipwreck and they were suprisingly easy to remove with little effort (after electrolytic treatment).  The threaded portions of the plugs was at least an inch and there was no shoulder inside the bore.
The threads were in great shape and still greasy feeling.

James Levy

[skillman]

Following on frogwalking's thought. I have often used a cutting torch to remove steel bolts from cast cylinder heads. The steel burns out easily while the cast head is hardly touched.

Steve

[Dphariss]

An old friend of mine from the LongrifleSmiths Guild, whome I haven't seen in years, once built a Hawken/Plains Perc. rifle from a big old Bill Large .72 or .75 cal. barrel. Called it "Old Griz". Anyhow, the breechplug/hook was machined with enough thread clearance it could be removed BY HAND! It snugged up nice by hand to the witness mark and felt tight, but a light twist and out it came. He bought the setup from Large at Friendship yrs. ago. Large said the originals were made that way 'cause the Mt. men didn't have a vise handy to clean out their barrels if something got plugged up or wet and wouldn't fire. Is this an urban legend? I've built a couple Hawkens and don't remember reading anything like that in John Bairds books.

Why would a MT man need to pull a plug?
Its rarely needed unless freshing is needed and if this is the case some tools are needed.
Everything Bill Large did and said is not Gospel.

Plugs need not be very tight of fit right. But if too loose they tend to turn PAST the index if removed a time or two so some preload is needed to assure this does not occur.
Just a little rust will cause this if a barrel that is fit fairly loose.
I debreeched a double, once a SXS shotgun/rifle, and the plugs would easily go past the index after they were removed and the grunge taken off. They were not particularly rusty but having a  loose plug that will not get finger tight before passing the index is not good.
Having loose plugs in a ML is similar to having excess headspace in a BL arm. Firing could result in them getting looser over time.
It also could cause accuracy problems a hooked breech can if it allows the barrel to move at all under recoil.
Dan

[rich pierce]

Look at pictures of old longrifles and you will often see dig marks on the sides of the barrel near the breech.  These look suspiciously like vise jaw tooth marks.  That suggests to me that in many cases, it took some serious work to get the breech plug out.

[flintriflesmith]

If the threads aren't reasonably tight the breech will leak water when the rifle is cleaned. We got a batch of commercially made barrels in to the CWF Gunshop about 1975-80 (from a maker no longer in the trade) and they seemed okay until Jon Laubach and I each made rifles that leaked hot water and powder fowling down the stock when we cleaned them the first time.

It not only screwed up the stock finish but we had to make new breech pins with tangs that matched the existing inlets! We returned the rest of the barrels for new plugs and the makers solution was to coat the threads in grey pipe dope. Needless to say that was the last time we order any barrels from him.

Gary

[warmutt]

About a year ago, I spent an afternoon looking over a gentleman's collection of Japanese matchlocks. The collector, an older Japanese man, took great pleasure in showing me how simple the higher quality ones were to take apart, and how with a firm grip the breech plugs could be removed by hand. Each breechplug had a least an inch of course thread and seated nicely to an engraved proof mark on the barrel.

[Captchee]

 Like many others here , I to have pulled many original plug to find   threading that would be considered today  to be sub standard  if not dangerous.
 Yet those threads have held for a 100 years or more .

[Jerry V Lape]

I wonder if we might learn something about this from the modern zip guns.  One of my friends has a zip gun with a breech plug meant to be removed for cleaning and it doesn't take a cheater bar on a wrench and big vise to remove that plug.  I am not a machinist and don't pretend to understand the thread requirements but apparently the zip gun makers think they have a safe breech.  Are they using a different thread system? 

[Dphariss]

If the threads aren't reasonably tight the breech will leak water when the rifle is cleaned. We got a batch of commercially made barrels in to the CWF Gunshop about 1975-80 (from a maker no longer in the trade) and they seemed okay until Jon Laubach and I each made rifles that leaked hot water and powder fowling down the stock when we cleaned them the first time.

It not only screwed up the stock finish but we had to make new breech pins with tangs that matched the existing inlets! We returned the rest of the barrels for new plugs and the makers solution was to coat the threads in grey pipe dope. Needless to say that was the last time we order any barrels from him.

Gary

Classic ML barrel making "quality"    Finding thinks like this is why I prefer to install my own breeches.
   
The old guns often had less "tolerance" (I prefer the technical term "slop")  in the threads than is found today and this helped things considerably since the thread fit made it harder for anything to penetrate the threads. Using an adjustable die when making the breech can make for a much tighter fit to the threaded hole. Just .003 oversize can make a lot of difference. Tight tolerance large taps are hard to find.

Dan

[J.D.]

I do believe that the threads used during the 18th century were closer to Witworth threads, with rounded peaks and roots. While I'm no expert on threads, I wonder if those old threads were stronger than modern threads?


I would also think that breech pins made with the old style threads would be easier to remove than modern ones, in addition to providing better fits, considering the way threads were progressively swaged onto the pins.

To be honest, I have only removed a few breech pins from originals, and those few barely predated the WONA, but all were relatively easy to remove with a little heat and lubrication, and only one leaked gas or water after reassembly.

God bless

[Don Getz]

Acer......you beat me to it, we did a lot of barrels for Kit Ravenshear and when he was ready to build the gun, he would
remove the breech plug and file the threads so that it could be installed and removed without a wrench.  One other thing
about old barrels.....they usually had coarse threads.  All of the Paris barrels built between the mid 1960's and 1977 when
we bought the equipment had the coarse threads.....5/8x11, 3/4x10.   We used the same threads for a short period of
time before we converted eveything to the fine threads.   We didn't change because of problems, we did it because it was
easier to do............Don