Author Topic: Which Revolutionary War Rifle?  (Read 17318 times)

Offline Stan

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Re: Which Revolutionary War Rifle?
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2011, 08:16:22 PM »
Whats wrong with using Albrechts "Lion & Lamb" ?  It has rev war provenance!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 08:17:25 PM by Stan »

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Which Revolutionary War Rifle?
« Reply #26 on: January 17, 2011, 08:26:19 PM »
Kind of hard to see that as having been made by anyone other than Oerter now, isn't it?  ;D

(Not like it really makes a difference relative to the discussion, as it does indeed have the provenance as I understand.)
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Stan

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Re: Which Revolutionary War Rifle?
« Reply #27 on: January 17, 2011, 10:02:49 PM »
My impression is that it was made by Albrecht at CS possibly with the help  C Oerter.
The interesting thing about the three early rifles from Beth/ CS ie the  two tailed dog,
the Lion & Lamb & # 42 , is that the stock profiles on these three rifles are identical 
except for pull length. The Oerter rifle profile doesn't match.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Which Revolutionary War Rifle?
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2011, 08:21:34 PM »
Ah yes, but if they (the earlier lion-carved guns) were made say 5-10 years earlier ca. 1765 give or take, don't you think the stock profile could be markedly different?

The carving details on the 'griffin' Oerter-sgned rifle and the Lion/Lamb rifle are so eerily similar that it is almost a signature to my way of thinking, master/apprentice relationship or not.  The other lion gun is too worn and too restored to really use as a basis for comparison other than in general terms.

Just being speculative, not argumentative.  ;)
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Tom Currie

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Re: Which Revolutionary War Rifle?
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2011, 08:47:17 PM »
I would have thought the Lion / Lamb would have been attributed differently in the Moravian book also given the discovery of the Griffon rifle. But it wasn't.  Old attributions die hard.

Eric, Do you have a thought on the brass patchbox being a later " upgrade" ? Has anyone ever looked for a dovetail slot for a wood box underneath the brass box ?

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Which Revolutionary War Rifle?
« Reply #30 on: January 18, 2011, 09:00:41 PM »
If we want to do more than speculate, maybe we should look for "roots" guns and who made them, and their "French connections".

Seems to me there are two basic curved profiles on rifles from Bucks County on up to the northwest.  One has the swoopy stepped wrist or classic Lehigh.  The other has a single curve to the lower buttstock.  Some speculate that the swoopy double curve Lehighs were influenced by Christians Spring work, where the stepped wrist was employed on a more robust architecture.

Which rifle would you pick as the earliest to display the double curve Lehigh profile?

Which would you pick as the earliest to display the single curve lower line amplified in later Bucks county rifles?  I'd pick the early smooth rifle Shumway featured in an article, "Lehigh Longrifle Evolution" (or something like that).  I see the Antes rifle with the daisy patchbox (RCA 52?) as an early example of this style, but 1770's-1780's.  I don't know that Antes had a French connection.

Now I will throw a wicked curveball.  Much as some dislike the notion, there were plenty of smooth rifles that came out of the Lehigh valley.  Octagon to round barrels, big bore.  Sometimes no rear sight, so on those, please skip the "I bet they were rifled when made" argument.

Since the French were not a rifle culture......... and many of those curvy rifles are smoothies.....

Playin with ya.

Original curve-stocked Euro rifle.  They were around.  As Stophel says, German gunsmiths worked in many styles, including Spanish, French etc.


oooooh- is that a griffon behind the cheekpiece?  Nothing new under the sun, I guess.

« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 12:03:54 AM by richpierce »
Andover, Vermont

Offline Stophel

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Re: Which Revolutionary War Rifle?
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2011, 01:18:23 AM »
"The stock is curved....there MUST be 'French influence'"...."Oooh, a Fleur-de-lis...the guy HAD to have trained in France"...

Ummm....well.....

I can build a gun with a curved stock without ever having set foot in France, nor ever having any contact with a French gunsmith, nor know a word of French nor eaten one single snail.  All I would need to know is that this particular shape is popular and it's what the customer wants.  Yes, the Germans made guns "in the French taste" since it was considered stylish.  The French gun books were widely published...and copied.

And if one wants to see a Proto-Lehigh/Bucks gun, look at the rifles made by the Freund family of gunsmiths from Fürstenau, which is very near Frankfurt-am-Main.  MANY German immigrants to PA came from this general region.   ;)

And I have also seen a FEW (meaning, like maybe two...) French rifles made like German ones!   ;)

I think, perhaps, SOME of the curve in Lehigh/Bucks guns came over from Germany with the Freund type guns...perhaps once here, it simply grew more curvy from there with no outside influence at all, a sort of "just because" situation. Or perhaps the butts began to curve more due to the "French influence" put upon gunsmiths by being in contact with French guns during the war or some other source.  I doubt that any of our mystery German gunsmiths "trained in France", nor do I believe there would have been much "French Huguenot influence" with these guns (besides, the few Huguenot gunsmiths I know of didn't make their guns look French at all!   :D )
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 02:22:01 AM by Stophel »
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Offline smshea

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Re: Which Revolutionary War Rifle?
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2011, 03:01:18 AM »
[quote   I doubt that any of our mystery German gunsmiths "trained in France", nor do I believe there would have been much "French Huguenot influence" with these guns (besides, the few Huguenot gunsmiths I know of didn't make their guns look French at all!   :D
quote]

 I was in no way making a case that Local gunsmiths had contact with Huguenot Gunsmiths....In fact I personally am not aware of any, just that they certainly would NOT have had to walk through France or train there to have contact with the French or their Influence. That is, if you believe the Classic Lehigh guns have French influence??? Could be!? But I'm sure they could have crossed paths with a Frenchmen...Here.  
For the Record, I like and build Curvy guns..... and I have had the snails! ;D
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 03:03:52 AM by smshea »