smooth bore barrel question

[dave gross]

I have an order for a 20 ga. left handed flintlock gun. The customer wants to use the gun for upland bird shooting and with a round ball for deer.  What do the members recommend as to barrel length and profile.  I see posts about "jug choked" barrels which I reckon is thought to improve shot patterning..Any experience with these and could such a barrel be used with a patched round ball without a negative effect on accuracy?  This gun will be built to no particular pattern or style so I'm just looking for ideas.  Thanks.

Dave Gross
Way Down East in Maine

[Jim Filipski]

Dave,
 I've always liked the traditional cylinder bore for upland game. I have never had any problem with a 42 " barrel. & Works great on deer with ball out to 75 yds ( I'm sure you can go beyond but most shots are 50 yds or less)
Just my opinion
Jim

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I agree with Jim, that a cylinder bore is what you want, both for the shot for upland game birds, and for patch and ball.  Cylinder bore is good for "buck, ball, or bird".  For wing shooting 42" length is going to be easier to swing than 48".  The barrel must be tapered or swamped too, and octagon to round, or full round is the ticket.

[woodsrunner]

I'll give you another version, but please know that I am not very experienced with shooting shot, just patched round balls:

Dave Dodds made a New England Fowler for me several years ago, #21 in Tom Grindslade's book, 51 inch Ed Rayl barrel, jug choked 30 thousandts by "What's-His-Name" out in Nebraska or one of those close-by states, 16ga. This piece swings beautifully and I can consistantly knock down quail out to 40+ yards and I'm no wing shot to speak of. It will pattern beautifully at 42-45 yards, putting 15 to 20 #5 shot in the kill zone of a turkey head target. James Levy, one of our Board Members with whom I squirrel hunt, will not clean any squirrel that I knock down closer than about 25 yards from me....too many shot....ask him if this "ain't the truth" . It will put PRB's inside a 4 inch bull at 50 yards all day long. Haven't killed a deer or bear with it yet, but that's only because I'm too old and weak to drag one out of the woods any longer! I know without question that this jug choked .65cal piece will double lung one if you hold it on target.

[James Rogers]

We have two 12 bores that are jugged to 15 thousandths. My son has shot his quite a bit and it shoots ball as good as any fusee bore gun (close to woodsrunner's accuracy but not that close as he appears to be much better than we are      
 I have heard some say the jugging had a negative effect but most reports from competent shooters are positive. Shot patterns are MUCH improved with jugging and I have never heard of negative impact on shot. If absolute, competition, pinpoint accuracy is desired for ball then something with rifling and a rear sight is the preferred method.
Of the 18th century English single barrel "birding pieces" (long waterfowling pieces excluded) I have studied that had not been cut back, the barrel lengths seem to have an average range of 38-42".  Many were cut back to keep up with the trend when the shorter barreled doubles came on strong and their belled/coned bore at the muzzle was lost.

[northmn]

First what are his "upland" hunting targets?  Will he be hunting turkey?  Roundball claimed good accuracy with a jug choked turkey barrel and roundball.  I get very good accuracy with no choke and roundball.  No choke will pattern OK but takes more tinkering.  The skeet choke which is about .005 was developed because, even with modern guns, no choke tended to donut pattern. For upland wing shooting about a 010 would be equivalent to an IC which is pretty good and should shoot both shot and roundball. Contrary to what some think a longer barrel does have advantages.  Modern trap shooters and sporting clay shooters use barrels up to 34" because it helps the follow through in their swing.  Some used to lead the barrels a bit for that purpose.  My complaint about the 42" barrel is not so much shooting it as carrying it in the car or on my 4 wheeler as it can be awkward for that.  I also do not like longer barrels in some of my deer stands.  Where horseback travel was the norm out West they seemed to prefer shorter barrels.  Note Northwest Trade Gun barrels come in 3 sizes: 30"", 36" and 42".  The 30 inch were popular with those tribes that liked to run buffalo on horseback.  The British had very short smoothbores used by cavalry and artillery.  Rogers Rangers were said to have cut back their muskets, but at the time the pattern was 46" for the infantry.  As to pattern what are his interests and what time period?

DP

[dave gross]

I thank all for the reponses to my question.  I am without experience with any shotgun, old or new, so am in uncharted waters.  I had decided that I'd use a swamped octagon to round barrel and your answers have settled the question concerning barrel length: I'll go with a 42 inch.  I know that every barrel maker has  his own design and specs but as a rule are the barrel walls at the muzzle relative thick or thin.  My thinking is that a lighter barrel would be quicker for target acquisition on flying birds but I only speculate on that.  I am unsure about the rear sight, or lack thereof.  It would be an asset for round ball shooting but would it not interfere in bird shooting?  Perhaps the shape of the rear sight opening might be a compromise which would work for both applications.  Or just stick a sight on with duct tape for deer season...I have a perfect record using  that method...batting average..000%  Thanks again for all the very helpful information........a great aid in preventing missteps.

Regards

Dave Gross

[northmn]

I have an "Express" sight on my smooth rifle, a pronounced V with no notch, which I have used to break clay pigeons.  It works best with a bead type front sight and a low profile.  I have a 1/8" bead as the eyes are such that I need that size.  My 42 inch barrel is a Oct to Round tapered and thin at the muzzle such that you solder on the front sight.  Any windage is done by drifting the rear sight (actually I just filed the rear V when I sighted in to make the minor adjustments I needed.   I have soldered on several sights and have had no problems.  I also solder the lugs for pinning and only had 1 fail which was my fault.  when resoldered properly it held.  Personally, were I building a smooth bore again where I could afford it, I would go with a 16 or 12 bore as the bigger bores are more versatile.  A 12 bore does give you a thump with round ball, but is decisive.  A 16 for me would be ideal.  As I have a 12 I have not overcome the sticker shock to assemble a 16.  The swamped barrels offer no advantage that I can see over the tapered Oct to Round.

DP

[James Rogers]

  Perhaps the shape of the rear sight opening might be a compromise which would work for both applications. 

Here is a period rear "sight" off a fowling piece. There is a thread on another board where a guy made one from a silver spoon and it looked super.

[P.W.Berkuta]

Dave here are my 2 cents;
I have hunted with a fowler with a 42" barrel back east for quail, pheasants, rabbits and I feel that is max length in the woods, works good in the fields. I like a 38" octagon to round in either 20 or 16 gauge. I shoot ATA trap and I'll say this on barrel length a 30" O/U back at 25 yds will smack those birds just as hard as 20 yds if your swing is timed right. The long barrel will smooth out your swing but it will be a slow swing especially when you get older and your reactions are slower. I vote for a light contour 38" octagon to round 20 or 16 gauge (I'd pick the 16 gauge).

[woodsrunner]

Now James, let's not stretch it too much! You and your boy can most probably outshoot me any day! I'm too old now to be much good. A weakening body and gradual deteriation in eyesight has taken me out of the chunkgun circut! But all of that past military training in marksmanship, including 3 years on the Jr ROTC rifle team and 7 annual range sessions at PI, has paid off very well with my flintlocks

[northmn]

  Perhaps the shape of the rear sight opening might be a compromise which would work for both applications. 

Here is a period rear "sight" off a fowling piece. There is a thread on another board where a guy made one from a silver spoon and it looked super.

The "V" in that sight is very similar to an express sight.  Interesting and beautiful attachment.

DP

[Stone River]

I certainly do not have the experience of others here, but I just got back from your neck of the woods grouse hunting.  I had both a 20ga 36" barrel trade gun and a 24ga. 28" fowler.  Having used both with success I would use either for upland game birds, but the shorter barrel on the 24ga. was a whole lot nicer swinging in the thick growth in Maine.  If the world was perfect I would have liked to have had a 20ga with a barrel length of around 30 inches.

I have no experience with the round ball so I can't help you there.

sr