Author Topic: Making a mainspring stronger  (Read 9201 times)

SPletcher

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Making a mainspring stronger
« on: October 25, 2010, 12:11:51 AM »
OK, I want to make a mainspring stronger without making a new one so...was thinking of heating up the bend an enlarging the opening the question is how much would be enough?  1/32, 1/16, etc. 

Will there be a "memory" to the original bend in the steel after heat treating and tempering?

Any feedback will be appreciated.

Steve

Offline whitebear

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Re: Making a mainspring stronger
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2010, 01:37:07 AM »
What are the symptoms that make you think that you need a stronger main spring?
Flint or percussion lock?  Flint or percussion style mainspring?
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Making a mainspring stronger
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2010, 02:36:22 AM »
OK, I want to make a mainspring stronger without making a new one so...was thinking of heating up the bend an enlarging the opening the question is how much would be enough?  1/32, 1/16, etc. 

Will there be a "memory" to the original bend in the steel after heat treating and tempering?

Any feedback will be appreciated.

Steve



Polish the long arm of the spring so you can see colors easily.
Clamp in vise at the bend with brass pads to protect the spring.
With a smooth jawed vise grip or large pliers  grasp the long leaf at the end that contacts the tumbler.
With a propane torch begin to heat the long leaf evenly to a blue color, keep the flame moving, while bending the leaf so as to increase the preload (arc) about 1/4" to 3/8". As the spring comes to blue it should relax so that it takes little or no pressure to hold it to your predetermined bend.
Allow to cool.
When cool you will have a spring with more preload.
DO NOT OVERHEAT.
If you take it past blue or do not heat the leaf uniformly to blue, i.e. heating part of it to blue while another part is cooler this may not work. If you overheat you will need to reharden the spring.
This will work most of the time. But sometimes its necessary to heat to red, rearch and then quench and temper.
Spreading at the bend only is a poor way to rearch a spring.
Dan
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SPletcher

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Re: Making a mainspring stronger
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2010, 02:43:55 AM »
What are the symptoms that make you think that you need a stronger main spring?
Flint or percussion lock?  Flint or percussion style mainspring?

No symptoms yet still in the build.  Searches about this lock recommend a stronger mainspring.  Wanted to give this a try before going the route of trying to make a new one.

I have to say that this mainspring feels weak compared to all other locks that I am familiar with.

Online rich pierce

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Re: Making a mainspring stronger
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2010, 02:50:40 AM »
Also make sure the foot of the mainspring is properly positioned all the way out on the tumbler spur ( I might be using wrong terms here).  I just got a lock that was assembled wrong with the cock at the wrong position on the tumbler.  So at rest the mainspring was not nearly extended enough and the mainspring was not bearing out on the end of the tumbler.  It is not a weak spring but lacks leverage when in the wrong position.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Bill of the 45th

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Re: Making a mainspring stronger
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2010, 03:02:17 AM »
Steve, regardless of the strength of the spring, how does this lock spark with a good flint in it.  That's the bottom line with a correctly positioned touch hole.  The spring could be strong enough to power a bear trap, or whimpy enough to barely spring a mouse trap, but the bottom line is does it spark the lock.  Before you mess with it check it out with a good  sharp flint, a Black English, or a Rich Pierce, and make sure the geometry is right for that lock.  Bevel up or down makes a difference lock to lock.  That's my two pence worth. ;D

Bill
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SPletcher

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Re: Making a mainspring stronger
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2010, 04:11:47 AM »
What lock are we discussing?

L & R Manton...flint

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Making a mainspring stronger
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2010, 04:22:59 AM »
I have used dozens of those locks, and have never seen a mainspring that was too soft.  Those locks are well balanced, and have a short fast throw, producing lots of sparks.  I would polish and draw the temper on the frizzen spring though...they are too hard.  Draw the polished frizzen spring to light blue - just past the beautiful dark shiny blue.  Those frizzen springs break in several places if not re-tempered.
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jacobmesserschmidt

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Re: Making a mainspring stronger
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2010, 05:01:05 AM »
I am a new builder and built a lock with a main spring that I thought was a bit weak. Heated to low red, spread it about 1/8 inch in a vise, quenched in water, and tempered for an hour at about 350 deg. F. It worked ok. I am trying to make my own flints and when I get a sharp edge and the right width, about 1 inch wide, seems to work well. Thinking about building gages to measure spring force and collect some data on ratios of main to frizzen, anyone tried that?

Offline J. Talbert

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Re: Making a mainspring stronger
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2010, 06:11:37 AM »
As others have suggested, I'd make sure there really is a problem before trying any fix.
If a thorough analysis convinces you that the spring is too light, the first thing I'd do is contact the manufacturer and ask for a stronger spring.

Seems the easiest course to me...

Jeff
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Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Making a mainspring stronger
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2010, 05:32:26 PM »
If she ain't broke don't fix it!

Could J-B weld a small wedge inside the bend end to stiffen the thing. ???

Offline JCKelly

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Re: Making a mainspring stronger
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2010, 06:34:29 PM »
350F is way too low to temper a spring, assuming it was water quenched from red heat (about 1450-1600F)  If the spring is too hard, say Rockwell C50, it will break one day just sitting in the lock.

Lots of quaint suggestions on how to temper a spring, in molten lead, until it reaches such & such color, etc.,  very interesting but they only work if you have started out with something not too hard. That is, maybe an oil quench for a 1095 spring might maybe work. OK, but water quench makes it too hard to deal with it easily, in a home shop.

There is a disconnect between what a metallurgist (yours truly) with accurate temperature control might do, and what one can actually do by eye. With a 1095 (high carbon steel, same as file steel) spring, given accurate temperature control, one would heat about 1450F and quench into salt water. Then reheat (temper) about 700 to 800F to get the right spring hardness, i.e., Rockwell C 40 to 45. That's great,
except 700F is too hot to judge by color, the temper colors have all faded out past pale blue by that time. Would take a Templestick, or more modern laser temperature measuring device. See your local welding supply shop.

Oil quenched 1095 does not get so hard to begin with, and might work tempered to blue, or just as the blue fades out.
Mediaeval guys heat treated armour with no good way to measure temperature. They did it in a manner to make a contemporary metallurgist cringe. That is, they heated the armour & then gave it what today we would call a "slack quench", that is, a lousey, too slow quench. So it wasn't all that hard coming out of the quench. And they could use it just as is. no reheat necessary.

by the way, soft or hard has nothing to do with how stiff a spring is. That is a hard concept to accept sometimes, but it is true. Stiff or weak comes from the design of the spring, how thick it is, mostly, and how wide open are tthe leaves.
 

Offline LRB

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Re: Making a mainspring stronger
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2010, 07:11:02 PM »
  If you haven't tampered with the lock, send it back to L&R, or try what Dphariss suggested. He may not be a metallurgist, but he has had a lot of experience in high end gun work of all kinds.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 07:11:52 PM by LRB »

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Making a mainspring stronger
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2010, 07:47:34 PM »
Balance is very important , so, if you mess with the mainspring, you may have to fool with the frizzen spring. The lock may;probably works fine as is. I'd not change anything unless proven otherwise.
For a quick fix on a import lock, I did  a temporary  fix at the range for a friend by just putting a wedge in the spring at the bend, and that helped.  Back at the shop, we annealed it, adjusted the bend/preset, hardened. tempered and it's been fine since then. Heating springs directly has not worked well for me,
I heat a plate with the spring laying on it. I seem to get better control that way. Or, use a tuna or kippers can filled with oil set alight with the spring in it.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Making a mainspring stronger
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2010, 11:12:24 PM »
What lock are we discussing?

L & R Manton...flint

Assuming the 1700, L&Rs have different names on TOW for example.
I have heated to blue and bent and it worked others from this lock I have had to do a complete reshape at red then harden and temper.
It will spark better with stiffer springs but you may have to do the frizzen spring too since it may be weak as well.
Once they are tuned these are great locks. You may have to remove as much as a 1/8" from the "stop" on the cock that contacts the lockplate to get the cock down as far as its supposed to be.
Like this

Compare the the photo on the TOW site.
You will need about this much preload on the mainspring.
The sear nose will need stretching too in most casts to set the cock back from the frizzen at 1/2 cock.

Dan
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Offline Pete G.

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Re: Making a mainspring stronger
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2010, 02:42:06 AM »
I've had a couple of L&R locks that were rather indifferent sparkers. Sent one back and I think they replaced the spring, to no avail. I applied the old trick of wedging a piece of thick leather in the bend of the main spring and had instant improvement. The leather stiffens the spring without giving a stress spot that would be a potential breaking point. It is an easy fix, it is cheap and it is reversible, but most of all is that it works well. Try it before you start heating and bending.

Offline BJH

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Re: Making a mainspring stronger
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2010, 12:03:42 AM »
You really need to get a flint in the lock and give it a try. I have used a number of L&R manton locks. I have never had to do a thing to any of them except a bit of polishing here or there.   See how it works first. It can be really enlightening to fire a lock in a darkened room. You can really see where the sparks are ending up. In the pan as they should or elsewhere.  Lock tweaks or flint legnth adjustments usually take care of this. Try slightly diffierent legnth flints first.  Make sure you really have a problem before you start working over springs.
BJH