How to make cherries?

[tlivin]

Has anyone made cherries for ball moulds using forging and hand tools. Any information would be appreciated.

[LynnC]

On the old version of the ALR board I recall that Jerry WH posted quite a detailed description of turning out and hand filing a cherry.  He described how he made a hardened steel scraper to make the cherry blank perfectly round.  I tried once to find the old post.  If you find the info, please post the info here as I'd like to re-read it too...................Lynn

[LynnC]

BTW - Welcome to ALR

Well I got curious and found it but darned if I can figure out how to link to it.  Perhaps someone far smarter than I will link to it.

Anyway - From the home page pick ALR archives and sign in.  Pick search then advanced search.

In Shop made Tools - search for "cherry" and by member jerrywh - Great info

actually 2 related threads and some others un-related

Glad you brought it up - I've some soap stone blocks begging to be cherried out!.........................Lynn

[Jim Kibler]

I believe the method of using a hardened plate as a scraper was passed from Hacker Martin to some of the earlier revival builders.  Wallace said that he learned of this from Hacker.  I've not tried the method, but here is the basic process as I understand it.  Drill a hole in a plate the size intended for the cherry.  Bevel bevel the hole to some degree.  Create an opening for the cherry shank.  Harden the scraper plate  Rough out a cherry, filing it as closely as possible to finial size, but not going undersize.  Use the scraper plate in a manner such that the cherry is rotated and pulled into the plate.  I believe an allowance is made in the scraper plate shank cut out area to permit the cherry to be rotated from side to side while scraping.  When the cherry fits through the hole it is sized.  It will then need teeth cut on it and need to be hardened and tempered.  Seems I've seen a schematic of the scraper plate somewher, perhaps foxfire 5.  Not sure though.

Wallace, Gary Brumfield, or any of the other Williamsburg guys will likely be able to help further if you are interested.  Brad Emig would be a good person to contact as well for more information on the process.

[westerner]

BTW - Welcome to ALR

Well I got curious and found it but darned if I can figure out how to link to it.  Perhaps someone far smarter than I will link to it.

Anyway - From the home page pick ALR archives and sign in.  Pick search then advanced search.

In Shop made Tools - search for "cherry" and by member jerrywh - Great info

actually 2 related threads and some others un-related

 

Glad you brought it up - I've some soap stone blocks begging to be cherried out!.........................Lynn

I followed your instructions Lynn.  I cant get to it.  I was going to post the link for you. My luck with search features sucks!

        Joe.

[JohnnyM]

http://americanlongrifles.org/old_board/index.php?topic=107.0

[LynnC]

That's good info Jim!

Thanks for trying Westerner - JohnnyM found the main thread.  I wish the photos still worked.   The other related thread was mostly discussing the actual cutting of the mold.

I'm going to give cherry making a try with this method.  Ive made molds by plunge method using end mills and drill bits that I carefully rounded and they come out pretty close.  I'll bet cherrying will be much easier and closer to perfectly round.

[Robby]

JWH was an invaluable resource, but he was booted, and took his pictures with him. What a shame, on someone!
Robby

[LynnC]

I remember reading of another way of cutting in the teeth on your cherry.  Teeth are raised with a sharp cold chisel while the cherry rests on a lead block.  Same way teeth are made on a hand cut file.
Just another possible method........Lynn

[LynnC]

Well I made a cherry   ...........And a soapstone mold.............Sorta  

I was shooting for a finished ball diameter in the low to mid .560's range for a 24 ga. 58 cal smoothbore. Turned out a +/- .001 .557 sphere on the lathe kinda as described above except I made my cutter 1/2 circle minus a little on one side for the sprue and cut it straight in after roughing out the sphere.   Cut my teeth on the cherry with the angled cuts of a sharp cold chisel.  Teeth were cut in spiraling around the cherry.  Supposed to cut more smoothly that way.  Anyway I found out that chiseling in the teeth makes the cherry a good bit larger in diameter than you would think.  Mine finished out at .570.  Oh well, I hardened it with kasenit and went on.  That was lesson one.

On to the mold blocks and lesson two - drilled my blocks for 1/4" wooden pins, drilled a sprue hole past ball center, countersunk sprue and drilled starter dimples in each block for the cherry to get a good start in  So far, So good.

Soapstone cuts real fast and easy.  I just used finger pressure to close the blocks around the cherry while rotating at slowest speed on my drill press.  Her comes the screw up.  The cherry started in the dimples but climbed up the sprue hole thus pushing the mold blocks Down, so I ended up with an elongated cavity.  Had I rested the mold blocks on the drill press table, I'd a had a good mold.................Live and Learn

Cast it anyway and the top part was a perfect .570 diameter ball.....with an elongation on the bottom.

Used up my stash of soapstone But I still have the cherry!

[LynnC]

Success - Tuned my blocks inside out and upside down.  Had enough room to cut new cavity while resting the blocks on my drill press vise.  It consitently casts balls of 274 grains that measure .568 to .570.
Not bad for a home made cherry and soapstone mold........Lynn

[KNeilson]

Lynn, I have cut my own flat files and rasps before and understand that process. The making and cutting of cherries interests me also. Would you mind to post a pic of the ones you made. Ive seen pics of original ones and I think they may have been produced in the same manner... thx...Kerry

[Jim Kibler]

I think it's pretty safe to say that the teeth on cherries were originally produced by filing rather than by upsetting with a chisel.

[KNeilson]

I think it's pretty safe to say that the teeth on cherries were originally produced by filing rather than by upsetting with a chisel.

Having never held an original, or seen anything other than a picture, I was wondering about this. I`m sure dimensional control would be easier by filing teeth in, but because I have cut similar items I was considering they (the toolmakers of the day) may have also... regards   Kerry

[jimrbto]

FWIW In 1968 Msrs. Cowher, Hunley and Johnston wrote a small book titled "How to Build Muzzle Loading- Rifle- Target Pistol- Powder Horn" published by NMLRA. On pages 19-22 are complete instructions for making a mold and cherry.
Jim

[KNeilson]

FWIW In 1968 Msrs. Cowher, Hunley and Johnston wrote a small book titled "How to Build Muzzle Loading- Rifle- Target Pistol- Powder Horn" published by NMLRA. On pages 19-22 are complete instructions for making a mold and cherry.

Jim, thx for the info. Found and ordered a copy....  regards.....Kerry

[LynnC]

KNeilson,
I am picture challenged shall we say.  I cut six teeth spiraling like you see on a fancy marble.  I over upset in some places and filed back side of tooth to bring it back. 

I'm sure of two things about a filed tooth cherry....
One - it would make a more perfect diameter ball
And two - would take A LOT longer to file out

Guess I took the easy way out since I was cutting soapstone

[LynnC]

Jim K,
I'm sure your right about most cherrys are made with filed in teeth.  And I considered the task but haven't quite figured out how to file teeth up to the stem.  My next cherry will be a filed out one as soon as I figure that part out.  I'm just learning as I go.......Lynn

[flintriflesmith]

Making a cherry and iron bullet mould to match he hand forged barrel were shown in the 1967 film, Gunsmith of Williamsburg. That classic is now available on DVD form Colonial Williamsburg Foundation. I don't want to get into a problem by "advertising" a product here but do strongly feel that everyone interested in 18century rifle building should have a copy.
Although a lot of research has been done since that film was shot, it, like the Foxfire series, contains information not available elsewhere.

Gary

[Jim Kibler]

Last I looked you can find the Gunsmith of Williamsburg on youtube.  Pretend you didn't read this Gary

[KNeilson]

FWIW In 1968 Msrs. Cowher, Hunley and Johnston wrote a small book titled "How to Build Muzzle Loading- Rifle- Target Pistol- Powder Horn" published by NMLRA. On pages 19-22 are complete instructions for making a mold and cherry.

  fwiw my copy came in the mail this AM. What a wonderful little book, full of lots of great info...This particular copy was sold in 1971, the original receipt was inside as well as a credit from DGW for .87c .  As well as a leaflet from DGW advertizing  "Italian made" gun kits, a english coach pistol, kentucky pistol and a Brass Frame Old Navy Colt revolver , all for around 30-40$...   made me smile............    Kerry

[Ryan McNabb]

Last I looked you can find the Gunsmith of Williamsburg on youtube.  Pretend you didn't read this Gary

Just the last 3 parts.  If someone wants the complete instructions so they can do it at home,    they'll have to buy the DVD. 

I like the scraper plate idea.  It would be very easy to use a hand turned reamer to ream the hole in the plate to any needed diameter, for handmade barrels, so that you wouldn't have to depend on drill sizes alone.  Then just cut your slot for the shaft.  The reamer will even leave a slight draft.  Or do you want any draft?  Do you want the bearing faces of the scraper hole to be square?  A sharp 90 degree angle might be what you want.

This is on my big time to-do list, like setting up for brass casting, but I just seem to never get around to it!   

[KNeilson]

The suggestion on how to make the scraper plate from the NMLRA booklet is to drill a hole slightly undersize thru a hardenable steel plate (suggests an annealed old file), and then using a countersink bevel in till you just have a sharp edge on the bottom. Harden and temper the  scraper plate at this time and then grind or lap/stone the bottom to sharpen the edge and increase the hole to needed size. Now grind the slot for the cherries shaft.  Caution is given to remind that this is just a scraper and trying to work too fast (like putting the cherry in an electric drill) will dull the edges of the scraper and produce bad results. They suggest a brace or similar hand held tool and plenty of cutting oil.

  Do you want the bearing faces of the scraper hole to be square?

Ryan, the book mentions like any scraper it must have a sharp edge, they suggest a countersink of 90 deg. or so..      Kerry

[JTR]

JWH was an invaluable resource, but he was booted, and took his pictures with him. What a shame, on someone!
Robby

Not the same guy.

Jerry WH was a great resource.

John

[Robby]

Okay,  www.jwh-flintlocks.net  ,That guy.
Robby