RCA Books: I have to ask

[LURCHWV@BJS]

 
  I recently saw both Volumes of the RCA books. I have a question about them, almost afraid of sounding like a herotic, Relizing the RCA books are to the gunbuilder as the Bible is to the Christian.

  I looked to see what everyone has been taking about and was VERY disappointed.  Are ALL the pictures in both Volume dark?  What I mean is Black and White with Dark Gray background.  I could only make out that there was an image of a rifle, but I could not make out any detail.  I honestly have taken better pictures with a pinhole camera made out of a piece of aluminum foil and a Quaker Oatmeal box.  As soon as I find the pic I'll prove that.

 I could not see spending $120 on $#@*.  Are All the books this way, or was the printing company just running out of toner?    This is a legitament Question not ment to make anyone angry or start a contriversy.


       Rich

[Jim Kibler]

Lurch,

You might want to take another look at them.  The photography is decent.  Most details can be made out pretty well.   Far better than you are describing.

Jim

[John Archer]

Mine have a very light cream background and as much detail as you could want from a black and white image for the most part.

John Archer

[heinz]

Rich, mine are of good quality.  I bought Vol 2 a year or so after they came out and Volume one early this year.  I have little problem with detail and my copies have a slightly cream colored background and are well bound.  They are not up to todays digital photography but are ceratainly workmanlike in their appearance.  Any chance you were looking at a knockoff copy?

[G-Man]

Mine are from the 80s as well (Heinz - I have Don Scheurmann's old copy signed by Dr. Shumway ) and the photography is just fine. Interpretations of attribution on some of the pieces have changed over the past 30 years,  and there is no substitute for seeing originals first hand - they always look different from the photos.  So no, not a "bible" but it's an essential thing you've got to have around if you are interested in learning about or building pre-1800 longrifles and I would place it higher on my list of priorities for references than most of the "how to" books or videos.

I would contact Shumway publishing directly - ask them about the print quality and see what they say.  I am sure they also have a return policy if not satisfied.


Guy

[rich pierce]

For builders, the RCA books are unmatched.  These are not pretty picture coffee table books- get Steel Canvas if you want warm colors and beauty shots, but little useful to help you build.  In RCA, there is all the dimensional information you need for most of the rifles.  Without that, there's no way to come close to an original.  The photos can be blown up to 1:1 scale easily on a photocopy machine.  George gave us the latest thinking on each rifle, and most of his comments are still highly relevant.  Mine are about worn out.  I bought them when they first came out and rarely go a week w/o consulting them.

[Ky-Flinter]

Lurch,

For what it's worth, the picture quality in my copies of RCA 1 and 2 is excellent.  Great detail and I don't even see any background color in the pictures, background is the same color as the rest of the page, light cream.

Apparently there are some "seconds" or less than perfect copies of RCA out there.  As noted in a previous post, some copies are missing pages.  If these made it to market, it's reasonable to believe there are copies with less than perfect printing also.

I think you got hold of a bum copy.  See if your local pubic library has RCA.  If not, ask them to borrow them for you thru the Inter-Library Loan program.  Should be free or nominal and they should be "good" editions.  If you like what you see, order from Shumway, Track or other reputable supplier and I think you will be pleased.

-Ron

[Ed Wenger]

Rich,

     I agree with what the other guys have posted.  It almost sounds like what you saw was a photo copy.  I'd look around some more...  They're wonderful books.

                Ed

[Acer Saccharum]

I think you're dealing with a photocopy, Rich. As Ed says.

Tom

[Artificer]

I purchased both Volumes within the last three years.  The quality of the photo's is excellent.  I also agree you may either be dealing with photocopies or perhaps "seconds" that should not have been released.
Gus

[Dphariss]

  I recently saw both Volumes of the RCA books. I have a question about them, almost afraid of sounding like a herotic, Relizing the RCA books are to the gunbuilder as the Bible is to the Christian.

  I looked to see what everyone has been taking about and was VERY disappointed.  Are ALL the pictures in both Volume dark?  What I mean is Black and White with Dark Gray background.  I could only make out that there was an image of a rifle, but I could not make out any detail.  I honestly have taken better pictures with a pinhole camera made out of a piece of aluminum foil and a Quaker Oatmeal box.  As soon as I find the pic I'll prove that.

 I could not see spending $120 on $#@*.  Are All the books this way, or was the printing company just running out of toner?    This is a legitament Question not ment to make anyone angry or start a contriversy.


       Rich

I would rather they were all color, but they are not. Nor are they color in Kindig's book. But the B&W in RCA is certainly good to excellent. I can't imagine NOT having RCA.
 If RCA was all color on slick paper given the number of photos most people could not afford them. 120 bucks for what is in RCA is cheap. We should all be thankful to George Shumway for these and many other books he published on the subject.
If you build Kentucky Rifles you gotta have the RCA as part of your library. There is nothing else like it.
If you want color buy "Moravian Gunmaking of the American Revolution" its wonderful, text and photos, it has 12 guns, mostly color and is 82.50 with the postage. I bought one as soon as I found it was on sale and do not regret it in the slightest.
But its only 12 guns. Some extremely nice and significant ones to be sure but still only 12 guns since is has a limited subject matter as the title indicates.
Its nearly impossible to build Kentucky rifles without books like RCA and the rest and the ability to see what the photos are telling you.

Dan

[Acer Saccharum]

The KRA Moravian guns CD is wonderful, as you can zoom way up on the photos. I wish there were more shots of details, but this is one of the best values going. If you have a computer, that is. If you don't, then how are you reading this?

[Rolf]

I'm a newbe like Lurch and I have both RCA and Kindig's book. I got my books from TOTW. I have to admit, I have problems understanding the 3D shapes the pictures represent. But then again I have never handeled a longrifle. I do find color pictures easier to understand. My favorit study aid are the four dvds on "CONTEMPORARY KENTUCKY RIFLES " by APV.  I find the way they rotate the rifles while filming greatly aids understanding the 3d shape. I really wish they would do another one dedicated to pistols.

Best regards

Rolfkt

[California Kid]

Mine are published in 1980. Nothing wrong with the photos or printing. Maybe you looked at a bad copy or something. Got them at Friendship from George and he signed them when they first came out.

[lew wetzel]

i had taken a short break from building and cracked my vol open a couple weeks ago and was just as mezmorized as the first time i seen it....re-lit my fire......lurch do you wear glasses.....the kra cd,s are great and full of detail...if you dont have them get em.....

[LURCHWV@BJS]

  I would have to say from what I saw, It had to be a knock off copy set.  When I saw them on the self it was like hearing  angels singing in the background.  When I looked through them it was like that little tune on The Price is Right, When the contestant looses.  From what All of you have told me There is still hope in finding a nice set.  And no I don't wear glasses...Yet.

  I will continue my quest for Quality copies.  Besides  all 15 of you can't be wrong.

    Thanks
      Rich


   P.S.  Welcome back Lew

[Stophel]

I never was crazy about the quality of the photo printing in RCA.  Black and white SUCKS.  BADLY.  No matter what the "experts" say, seeing details and surface contours is impossible.  BUT, for most of these guns, it's all there is.  So you take what you can get.

[flintriflesmith]

The difficulty in reading the shapes and curves is not so much from the fact that the pictures in RCA are in B&W -- the KRA CDs are also-- but the fact that the photos were taken with a technique of lighting called "painting" where the lens is set at  a very small aperture, opened for a long time and the single light source is moved all around the rifle. This method illuminates evenly but creates confusing highlights, or none at all, and highlights are what our brain uses to translate a 2 dimensional image into rendering that appears to be three dimensional.

This makes the details of relief carving especially hard to translate and I have actully seen reproduction carving that was accidentally a negative image of the original.

Gary

[California Kid]

Gary, excellent post. There are many lighting techniques. George used painted light as you correctly said.
There are better ways. George did a lot of that work on location so it was a simple but effective way to accomplish his mission without an elaborate studio setup, i.e. very portable. He used a large format press camera as I remember, hours of work in the darkroom just developing negatives and making prints, an art in itself. He did this well before the digital age. Color images can be deceiving as well, but  black and white is what it is and still shows light and shadow. Its all in the lighting. Maybe J.W. Filipski can elaborate on this.
 Good to see your recent posts Jim!

[Dphariss]

Firearms are notoriously hard to get good photos of.
To really do it "right" you need a dedicated room for photographing the object.
All white with lighting that, with the white walls, floor and ceiling eliminates shadows. I was in one such years ago during a visit to California and it was possible to walk right to the wall and cast no significant shadow.
But it is hard to haul one of these to every Kentucky collector represented in RCA. So Shumway did as best he could.
For those who have not done so try taking a overall view of the long gun all in sharp focus with no shadows and no hot spots. Its not easy.
When you get done you will be more appreciative of RCA.

Dan

[California Kid]

Firearms are notoriously hard to get good photos of.
To really do it "right" you need a dedicated room for photographing the object.
All white with lighting that, with the white walls, floor and ceiling eliminates shadows. I was in one such years ago during a visit to California and it was possible to walk right to the wall and cast no significant shadow.
But it is hard to haul one of these to every Kentucky collector represented in RCA. So Shumway did as best he could.
For those who have not done so try taking a overall view of the long gun all in sharp focus with no shadows and no hot spots. Its not easy.
When you get done you will be more appreciative of RCA.




Dan

Exactly

[Eric Fleisher]

Rich,

Go right to Shumway

http://www.shumwaypublisher.com/store/shop/category.asp?catid=2

[Birddog6]

Well, I think we would all like to see Perfect 3-D photos.  But it is not gonna happen, and we have what we have, which I think are pretty decent photos when I consider they were taken years ago & etc.  Also you must consider this is the ONLY set of books like it, and you will never see this grand collection of rifles together again & photographed again.........

Now if you want to see a comparison of good vs poor printed quality of photos, look at the Shumway Jaeger book & compare that to the RCA # 1 & #2.  After that comparison, you will agree the RCA books are very good to what is avail.

No the RCA books don't compare to some books, like the new Jaeger book that J.Chambers sells, Steel Canvas,  or a few of the other high dollar gun books that are in color.  

But for me,  I am EXCEEDINGLY pleased to have the RCA Vol. #1 & 2 books.

Keith Lisle

[Acer Saccharum]

What the RCA does that no other book does, is give vital dimensions of barrel length, wrist diam, width across the lock panels, etc; and views from above/below, and detail shots. It is not perfect, but it's a !@*%&@ fine reference. Use the book in conjunction with viewing original work, whenever possible.

Tom

[KY Shinner]

I hope Lurch is wrong.  I just ordered both volumes a couple of days ago from Shumway, I should get them very soon.  I find myself checking the door when I get home.  Any reference material is good for me.  I am new to this and have not handled originals so for now this will have to do.