swivel breech rifles-joining barrels?

[Tenn Hills Guy]

What methods are there to join barrels at the muzzle end?  Since my construction essentially 'hooks' the barrels in, seems a permanent 'weld' would make cleaning difficult.

[Acer Saccharum]

Some swivels have dovetailed blocks between the barrels. Cut a dove tail slot on each of barrels, on the bottom of each barrel, and fit a block to dovetail into each slot. I think you may want two or three of these blocks, depending on the length of the barrels.

[keweenaw]

There are also some swivel breeches that have forestock wood between the barrels and I assume these are pinned with lugs in the typical manner.

Tom

[JTR]

Like posted above, one way is to cut matching dovetails in the barrels, then hold the barrels together with a lug to fit both dovetails.
The picture shows the way Nicolas Hawk made the lugs.
Also, both the dovetails and the lug is tapered, so the lug will only go in and out in one direction.
John

[Tenn Hills Guy]

The dovetail piece was the only idea I could think of.  One aspect of building a SB that seems seldom mentioned.  I like the idea of the tapered dovetail! I think a little oval tip..similar to pistol wedges would aid, too.  Thanks for the pic!

[hoochiejohn]

Have seen a couple wenders with the barrels soldered full length on both sides, and the ramrod pipes soldered b/w the barrels.
                         Hoochiejohn

[Don Getz]

On the Nicholas Hawk swivels that Paris developed, and we made.....about a dozen of these units, complete with barrels.
To hold the barrels together, we had three dovetailed hangers on each barrel.   Each consisted of a male and a female
hanger.   The female hanger had a longitudinal slot and the male had a longitudinal stud.   After the gun was assembled
there was a pin, or if I remember correctly, it could have been a fine screw, or bolt that went thru the stud, and, also held
the two sides to the gun.  It's been a long time since I made one......don't want to do it again.............Don

[Dphariss]

Whatever you do you want neutral tension, not pulling the barrels together or forcing them apart. Doing so can accuracy problems I think.
You can make a pair of dovetailed parts that are dovetailed or soldered to the barrel and when one barrel is installed on the action the other is slid into a dovetail in the part one male the other female dovetails that wedge as the barrel is slid back and tied into the front swivel plate.
I am thinking of soft soldering the barrels together using brass blocks on the next one. Time will tell.
Dan

[Tenn Hills Guy]

I like the idea of soft silver soldering the lugs in place.  Probably would aid in keeping alignment constant.  I'm at the point that the wood is going to be almost paper thin, wouldn't take much to split!  Guess everyone should make .......just one swivel gun!  Bill

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I too have an interest in making a swivel breech, and am studying the Wm. Antes rifle for the inspiration.  In '07 I had the opportunity to talk to Allen Martin about my project, and he showed me a breech assembly and pair of barrels that he had in his shop at the time.  He consented to permit me to photograph these parts, and here is the barrel joining dovetails and their cleats, as described so well by Don Getz.  From this stage, a pin, screw, or key/wedge/slide can be fitted to both hold the wood to the barrels, and to hold the barrels solidly together.

[Dphariss]

I too have an interest in making a swivel breech, and am studying the Wm. Antes rifle for the inspiration.  <snip>

I am slowly making tooling to, hopefully, make full length brass forend panels for a couple of swivels. One I have in planning and one a friend has a barreled action for. But other things keep getting in the way.
My 50 caliber, kinda sorta Antes rifle with 40" (cut from 44") B weight 50 caliber swamps weighs 11 pounds and I really like it a lot.


Gotta start keeping a cover on it though, fell in the rocks a few minutes after taking this, no significant damage to the rifle but still a PITA, really, thats where I landed

The Antes is one of the greatest, if not THE great swivel breech. At least to me. Nothing about it really that is not to like. When I see it I always think "Timothy Murphy".

Dan

[louieparker]

 On the earlier swivels that I have seen , the fore stock was made from a single  piece of wood and each bbl.  had a loops dovetailed to the bottom , at the same spacing . One had a single loop the other two parallel loops with enough space between the two loops for the single loop  to go between them . Then a single pin went through both loops holding both in the fore stock.  The ramrod pipes were held in place by a screw that went through an inlay on the opposite side and screwed into the pipe ..Louie

[louieparker]

Taylor...Before making the last post I failed closely study your photo  ..Seem we are talking about the type system ..   Louie

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Yup!  ...and that's good.  I was hoping I was on the right track.  I have a nice piece of English walnut for my stock and plan to cut two barrel channels with very little web at the breech and and muzzle.  I have designed a hooked breech set up, as I have to take my barrels out of the stock for cleaning - HAVE TO!!!

[louieparker]

I don't understand what you mean ,a little web at breech and muzzle ?  LP

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Louis..the wood left between the barrels after inletting the two of them into the forestock.  In a longrifle, I like a very thin web between the barrel and the rod hole and channel- just enough for the forward #8 lock screw to pass.  I shoot for 5/32" at the breech.  I built too many rifles with 3/16" - 1/4" for a web.  It makes for a heavy forend through the lock area and just at the forward extension of the trigger guard.

[louieparker]

  When you said at breech and muzzle that confused me a bit . Yes there was just enough wood between the bbls for the loop depth. What type release to swivel the bbls are you using ? LP

[Tenn Hills Guy]

As far as designing an SB, I notice what appears to be different set-ups as far as the barrels are concerned.  Mine are basically joined together, I see one with a space between.  Is there a good, better, best arrangement for aligning the barrels?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Louis, I'm convinced that Antes used a flat washed type spring with a stud that threaded into the thick boss of the front of the trigger guard.  Pulling aft on the front of the split guard withdrew one or two pins from the forward plate allowing the barrel assembly to be revolved...here's a pic of the guard I made for the project, and the spring that accompanied Allen's swivel mechanism.

[JTR]

Taylor,
My Hawk swivel has a similar spring arrangement.
The stud screws into the front boss on the trigger guard as well.
Hawk made the trigger guard as one piece, and the entire guard slides back to unlatch the barrels.
I think I sent you those pics some time back?

Tenn Guy, I don't think it'll made much difference in how you attach the two barrels together, as long as the attachemnt method is solid, and not putting any out of align strain on either barrel.
If I was going to build one, and be particular, I'd use a sliding trigger guard for the barrel release method, as that's what most of the old boys used. Some modern barrel sets I've seen use other methods to release the barrels, but I'd stick to the sliding TG, twer it me doing the job.
 
John

[louieparker]

Taylor,  That's a super job on the guard . Really looks good ..As for what Antes did  to release the bbls , I am just not sure . There seems to be spring or trigger type device showing through a rectangular shaped hole ,about  where the front of the bow would set .I  tried to figure out what and how something could attach to that ..Didn't  come up with anything that made any sense . Also a threaded hole to the front of the mentioned slot .Was that added later  ?? Also  I don't think the  Antes has a hole for the center guard support screw.  I just can't come up with an answer that satisfies me .....Louie

[Acer Saccharum]

Taylor, please consider making a separate thread in which you post the progress of your Antes, step by step. Your photos are always excellent, and your process is always neatly described.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I didn't mean to sideline this thread, Tom.  All agree that the swivel breeched rifle is a worthy subject of study, and when the time comes to dive into the project, I'll start a new one my Antes attempt.
John, yes you sent me a nice collection of pics on Hawke's rifle, and I have them saved in a file.  The spring is very similar, but has only one stud built right into the spring, to engage a corresponding hole in the front plate.  I have had an opportunity to study a really nice Nicholas Hawk rifle, and the sliding guard works like a hot @!*%.
I suppose the release mechanism on the Antes rifle will always remain a subject of speculation.  It may be that he simply had a trigger-like pin in front of the guard.  But since the guard is missing, one has to consider that that little tit hanging down is what's left of the stud that screwed into the trigger guard's boss, and having broken, carried at least the front part of the guard away with it.  There are quite a few extant examples of the split guard system, and I shall go with it for my rifle.
Although we are not discussing the joining of the barrels, I feel that this is all related to the whole package, and doesn't detract from the thread.  But I've been wrong before, eh.

[Acer Saccharum]

Taylor, I wasn't worried about you sidelining the thread...it's all great material.

My interest lies in having a reference document for others to look at. I don't know if that is something you're up for...it's a $#*! of a lot of work. It would also be better as a separate thread, with your info as the only material, a bit like a tutorial in that rerspect. But it would not have to be a tutorial by any means, but a documentation of your project.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Absolutely!   But pls. be patient...I have several other projects ahead of the Antes rifle.