It isn't as easy as it looks

[J.D.]

This is my very first attempt at engraving, using a prepared square graver bought from Mike Lea at the CLA show and a home made square graver made of 1/8 " square 1095 steel.

The lessons learned were;
the need for higher magnification.
A larger face on the previously prepared graver, and a smaller face on the home made graver.
Better lighting
Higher bench so's I don't have to bend at the waist to see my work....such as it is.
Prepare several practice blocks so's I can practice longer without preparing another block.
Learn to resharpen gravers quickly.

But hey, the bottom "border" line is almost straight...kinda, sorta

I do have a coupla questions.

What do y'all use for handles on engraving chisels  for chasing with an engraving hammer? And what length of chisel and handle would y'all recommend when using a chasing hammer. The home made chisel is nearly 4 " long.

Any and all advise is appreciated.
Thanks,
J.D.
 

[idahjo]

  Man, does that look familiar! 
I can do about anything (self-figgered out) but engraving and checkering are my 'bug-a-boos'
Engraving I will acceptibly master one of these days... checkering, never!
Hang in there...

[T*O*F]

JD
Commercially made gravers are usually unsuitable.  Depending on the use of the graver, each must be cut with a face angle, a heel angle, and side angles.  In addition, the length of the heel is also a consideration.  Likewise, you need a method of maintaining these angles during sharpening once they are ground.

I obtained a length of 3/8" aluminum rod and some HSS 3/16" tool bits from Enco when they were on sale.  I paid 18 cents apiece in a quantity of six for the tool bits.  The rod was also on sale.  A hole was bored into the end and tapped a hole for the retaining screw.  It will be replaced with a set screw when I get around to it and I have several more to make.

Another listmember ground the tips for me on his diamond wheel and gave me a chart of the angles to use when resharpening them.  You can read the specific uses for each on the card.  I won't mention his name because he did them as a favor for me and I don't want to commit him to anything.

I have been using commercial push gravers and a Crocker angle fixture to make chase gravers from them, with mixed results.  Sometimes my engraving is excellent and others it was $#@*, depending on how I sharpened them.  These eliminate all those problems......it's really all in the tool, not necessarily the guy behind the hammer.

[J.D.]

Thanks, for those replies, and the encouragement.

idahjo,
If someone can learn to do something, there is no reason you or I can't learn it, as well. We might have to work harder than someone who is naturally talented, however, anyone who puts forth enough effort can become better at a given skill than someone with natural talent and ability who doesn't constantly practice. So get off your assets and practice. 

TOF
The graver bought from Mike Lea was pre-ground to a face angle of 45 degrees with 15 degree relief. The last inch, or so, was ground down to almost nothing. The face of the graver is barely visible with the naked eye. Not to mention that it felt like the point broke while cutting one line. It wouldn't cut straight afterward, so the switch was made to the home made graver.

The home made graver is reduced in width and thickness for the last inch or so, to about half of the size of the parent bar. The face is still too large, but at least it can be seen.

The face of the home made graver was ground at about a 45 degree angle, hardened and tempered, then polished, and about a 15-20 degree relief, about .010 long, ground by hand, as suggested on the Lynton McKenzie DVD. Gotta practice sharpening too. There was a definite burr raised by the graver, so it apparently wasn't sharp enough.

The engraving is pretty rough...Well, maybe it's real rough, but I learned a few things, so it wasn't a waste of time.

I'll look for those 3/16 " HSS tool bits. I'm sure they will make dandy gravers.
Thanks,
J.D.

[Acer Saccharum]

My all time favorite tools for hammer engraving are the "die sinker chisels", available from Gesswein. They are about 6" long, solid High Speed Steel (HSS). The tool that TOF shows is my next favorite tool. The aluminum handle transmits the power very well, without much loss of the hammer blow. Wooden handles do not transmit the hammer very well. TOF's tools are easily re-sharpened in a standard sharpening jig, and the die sinker chisels can be sharpened by hand. I have come to appreciate the sharpening jig for its repeatability. ( http://www.grstools.com/toolsharpen.html#dualangle )

http://www.gesswein.com/catalog/catalog.cfm?cat=15&sub=5&subsub=60&catalog=1&CFID=940277&CFTOKEN=21166757



What I don't hear you talking about J.D., is the heel, a short flat behind the cutting edge. This wee flat allows you to dive the tool in, and then ride it back out of the cut again, just by lowering the handle. Raise the handle to go deeper, lower the handle to come out of the cut. For long straight cuts, I use a looooong heel, up to .03 (1/32). The long heel acts like a keel, helping to keep the tool running straight. For making turns and scrolls, I use a real short heel, about .005" long, to allow turning without tearing up the furrow with the tail end of the heel. If I try to make turns with a long heeled tool, I will get a rough line, and probably break the tip of the tool.

Does this make sense? Often it takes a lot of trial and error to figure out what works best for your style of engraving. I learned a lot about sharpening from a hands on class with a master engraver. Until that point, I experienced tremendous frustration. It's a lot better now that I know more about sharpening. You will come to realize that each metal likes a different tool geometry, and each style of engraving needs tools sharpened in a particular way. This is not to frighten you, it's more to give you a heads up how important sharpening is.
If you are going to do a lot of engraving, you really need to invest some serious money. If you are going to occasionally engrave, your time will be well spent learning all you can about sharpening.

I keep a notebook of the angles I use for each kind of line I cut. I can't remember all of this, even if I thought I could once upon a time, I know now I can't. Keep a notebook. This will be one of your handiest tools.

Tom

[T*O*F]

Go to http://use-enco.com
Select Enco Model # at the top
Enter Model #383-5312

They're $.39 each in quantity of 10 or more.  When I bought mine, they were on sale in 6 pacs for $.18 each.  They are considerably higher from other suppliers.  They can be used "as is" no hardening required.

To add to Tom's post about a sharpening jig.  I bought the Crocker style jig from Gesswein and it's about the most worthless piece of equipment there is.  The one that Lindsay Engraving sells is much better, but you have to buy a separate fixture for each angle you want.  The GRS Dual Angle is top of the line, but perhaps a bit expensive for the occasional engraver.

Also, there is a gentleman who does engraving exhibitions at Friendship who uses 1/2" and 1/4" drill bits to resharpen his gravers.  I'm told this is the way that Lynton McKenzie did his.

I also purchased some inexpensive 4" diamond bench stones from Smokey Mountain Knife works in 300, 600, and 1200 grit, however you can use wet or dry paper too.
 

[Dphariss]

Thanks, for those replies, and the encouragement.

idahjo,
If someone can learn to do something, there is no reason you or I can't learn it, as well. We might have to work harder than someone who is naturally talented, however, anyone who puts forth enough effort can become better at a given skill than someone with natural talent and ability who doesn't constantly practice. So get off your assets and practice. 

TOF
The graver bought from Mike Lea was pre-ground to a face angle of 45 degrees with 15 degree relief. The last inch, or so, was ground down to almost nothing. The face of the graver is barely visible with the naked eye. Not to mention that it felt like the point broke while cutting one line. It wouldn't cut straight afterward, so the switch was made to the home made graver.

The home made graver is reduced in width and thickness for the last inch or so, to about half of the size of the parent bar. The face is still too large, but at least it can be seen.

The face of the home made graver was ground at about a 45 degree angle, hardened and tempered, then polished, and about a 15-20 degree relief, about .010 long, ground by hand, as suggested on the Lynton McKenzie DVD. Gotta practice sharpening too. There was a definite burr raised by the graver, so it apparently wasn't sharp enough.

The engraving is pretty rough...Well, maybe it's real rough, but I learned a few things, so it wasn't a waste of time.

I'll look for those 3/16 " HSS tool bits. I'm sure they will make dandy gravers.
Thanks,
J.D.

Using 3/16" means you grind a LOT more off.
I like the 4" x 3/32" that Brownells sells. They cost more but the will take twice as many sharpenings.
So far as breaking tools, remember what McKenzie said about being "a professional tool sharpener who does some engraving on the side".

The Brownell tools stand up pretty well.
I also like a short heel for curves and a longer one for straight lines. McKenzie apparently used about the same angles for everything as does a friend of mine it seems. But he was a photo engraver as well and had lots of "practice".

Dan

[California Kid]

I got some 1/8" HSS tool blanks from Enco. 3/16", too much extra material to grind off.
Msc has Momax, but cost more. They used to have 3/32", but don't any more.

[J. Talbert]

My suggestion now, for someone getting started, is to get Lindsay's basic "Universal" sharpening jig, with several of his diamond hones, (260, 600, & 2000 grit) and several of his HSS 3/32" graver blanks.
You can actually use any diamond hone with his fixture as long as it 1/2" tall.
With the 260 grit hone it doesn't take all that long to shape a graver from the blank by hand, but if you have a power hone, which I don't, all the better, but watch the heat with HSS.
A $1.79 generic Xacto knife makes an excellent graver handle simply by removing the blade, tightening the collet back into the handle and then drilling the center of the collet with a 7/64" drill bit.

Having tried the others, I think that Lindsay's sharpening system is hard to beat,  and you can learn an awful lot of engraving with the one universal jig, before you need to worry about getting any of the others.

[R. Hare]

JD,

I'm brand new here, and in no position to say much, but I use antler handles on my homemade gravers.
 (From near the tips, where they're solid with no honeycombe centres)

Transmits shock well, and gives me something to hang onto with my farmer's mitts!

You are Very right on one of your earlier observations;
If you can't see it, you can't do it!  Magnification and light. V. High priority!

Best wishes,

Richard.

[idahjo]

Jeff; I am toying with getting one of the Lindsay set-ups you have recommended as soon as I can jsutify the $210.00 layout.  (maybe Christmas if the economy doesn't cave in by then)
I'm sure that will go a long way on the 'learning curve'!  What do you use for the graver bits?
Thanks

[J. Talbert]

Idahjo,

I'm currently using Lindsay's HSS graver blanks.  He sells a pack of 5 - 3/32" x 2.5" for  $30.00.  And of course, they fit perfectly in his sharpening fixture.
He also sells "Carbalt" blanks (carbide with cobalt alloy),  which I have not yet tried, and would probably never need for ML engraving.

As far as the fixture itself,  it will work with any type stone or diamond hone, as long as it is 1/2" high.  So if you already have the appropriate grit stones or diamond hones,  you could make do with them by raising or lowering them to 1/2" above the fixtures working base.

[Rolf]

I gave up on trying to learn to engrave, because I could never get the gravers sharp. I'd like to try again if I can find a way to sharpen them consistent without spending several hundred dollars on jigs. Is there a cheap way for a newbie to sharpen gravers?

Best regards

Rolfkt

[T*O*F]

Is there a cheap way for a newbie to sharpen gravers?

Rolf,
Contrary to what has been said about the Lindsay system, it is not necessary to spend that much money.  The Lindsay Universal fixture is available for $89, you don't need the whole package.  Likewise spending $30 for the Lindsay blanks.  Any HSS blank of the appropriate size will work.  There is a device for fixing the bit length when installing it in the fixture.

Different angles can be achieved with the fixture by altering the length of the tool bit, or the height of the stone.  These angles can be set up using a movable armed protractor.  Likewise you do not have to pop for the diamond bench stones.  They are available elsewhere much cheaper.  Also, you can use regular stones of the appropriate grit and hardness if you already have them.  It just takes a bit longer to stone in your angles.  Final polishing of the tips can be done with wet or dry paper and regular buffing wheels.

For the hobbyist, this is the realistic way to go.  If you are a tool freak with lots of discretionary income or if you plan to engrave for money, then you might consider the expenditure of 1000's of euros required for all the equipment and see if you get a good return on your investment.  Never buy a tool that won't pay for itself in a reasonable length of time.

[idahjo]

Thanks Jeff, appreciated

[J.D.]

I gave up on trying to learn to engrave, because I could never get the gravers sharp. I'd like to try again if I can find a way to sharpen them consistent without spending several hundred dollars on jigs. Is there a cheap way for a newbie to sharpen gravers?

Best regards

Rolfkt

I'm cheap...er...ah, frugal. No, I'm cheap and I can't see buying expensive gadgets to sharpen tools. I rather quickly learned to sharpen drill bits with only a drill point gauge to confirm the length and angle of the bit. Likewise, I will spent the time to learn McKinzies way of sharpening chisels and gravers. It may not be as precise as when using the expensive gadgets, but it apparently does work. And it's cheap. And once the technique is learned, it is much faster than using a fixure.

IF McKenzie can learn to sharpen without a fixture, you and I can learn it too.

IMHO, if someone can learn a skill, anyone else can learn the same skill with the same proficiency...with dedication and effort. IMHO, natural talent and ability is only a place to start. Natural talent really doesn't mean all that much without continued practice.

So, get off your assets and learn to sharpen those chisels.

Just kinda think'n..typin' out loud, so to speak...type. 

That said, I do appreciate everyone's ideas and suggestions, many of them will be investigated and probably adopted. Thanks.
J.D.

[jerrywh]

A good mechanic needs more tools than a cresent wrench and some pliars.  If a person is not willing or able to obtain the needed tools the results will reflect it.  I often need to sharpen a graver 50 times in the process of engraving one gun. For a muzzle loader maybe only 5 or ten times.
  It all depends on if you want to spend  your time sharpening or engraving.
 

[Acer Saccharum]

J.D. I can appreciate cheap, for I am cheap. But if I know that the right tool is $100, I will buy it, or save for it until I can get it.For the right tool is the cheapest tool in the long run. It will save you time, and do a better job. You will get more enjoyment from the work, with less frustration.

I can also appreciate spending time, hour after hour, year after year, trying to learn something with poor and inconsistent results. This comes partially from an unwillingness to spend money on the right tools, and from not willing to spend the time how to learn how to do things right. It also comes from being an independent mined know-it-all kind of guy.

Trying to tough it out is not going to do anything but frustrate you in the end. You can also learn the wrong way to do things, which are harder to un-learn than if you started from a fresh, innocent point of view.

Natural talent is a great thing to have, but it has to be nurtured, given time to develop, exercised, put to work in order to bring it out to its fullest potential. Determination and hard work are needed to bring this talent out of hiding. We don't just wake up one day and find, incredibly, that we have this font of talent. It takes years of work and desire, and emulation, copying the masters, reading and learning everything one can about your passion. I find I must be passionate about something in order to be able to do it. Part of kindling the flame is to study the original works, go to museums, learning techniques and materials involved, etc.

If this sounds daunting, you must realize that all of this is fun. If it's not, don't do it.

$#@*, I must have worn my philosopher underwear today.

[Tom Cooper]

Again Jerry is right on the money, depends what you want to spend your time doing.

Acer, sorry man but all I got out of your post is that you crapped your undies...

[lhill]

 ok, I'll bite, how do you sharpen a graver with a drill bit?  Jerry H I know you use a diamond wheel to sharpen your gravers now, but what did you use prior?

[Tom Cooper]

The stones are far less important that the fixture that holds the bit.

[Evil Monkey]

I used to be cheap/frugal as well until one day I woke up. Reality is that money is the most renewable resourse there is. Spend it and you can always get more. Time on the other hand is a fixed (albeit unknown) amount, spend a minute and it's gone FOREVER!. I USED to waste time saveing money, now, I'ld rather waste money saving time. Never apologize for buying the best tools, EVEN if it is just for a hobby.

[J. Talbert]

lhill,

The drill bit method being referred to is a system that Lynton McKenzie taught to establish consistent heel angles.  The process is to lay a drill bit of appropriate size (3/8 - 1/2"") on the edge of, or along side your stone to use as guide rail.  You then stone the heel angles by laying the the bottom flats of the graver on the shaft of the drill bit, at a fixed distance from the tip and stone the graver side to side, allowing you to maintain a consistent angle as you go.

This method still requires that you do the face angle by hand, as well as requiring a certain amount of "touch" to get the heel angles just right and the keel straight

Mark Silver recommends viewing those angles with jeweler's loupe.  If the keel, small as it is, is not straight down the center, you'll constantly be fighting the tool.

[J.D.]

I used to be cheap/frugal as well until one day I woke up. Reality is that money is the most renewable resourse there is. Spend it and you can always get more. Time on the other hand is a fixed (albeit unknown) amount, spend a minute and it's gone FOREVER!. I USED to waste time saveing money, now, I'ld rather waste money saving time. Never apologize for buying the best tools, EVEN if it is just for a hobby.

Now that is profound. You're a pretty smart monkey...for a Canadian. 

Now that I've seen the light, which sharpening fixture do y'all recommend for someone who isn't sure he will be good enough, or dedicated enough to recoup the cost of expensive tools?

In searching messages on the engraving forums, I found that some folks use the Crocker fixture. Some like it, some don't. Most don't, it seems.
The complaint seems to be that the dial does not facilitate easily repeatable angles.

The GRS power sharpener is top of the line, but out of my price range.

How about the GRS #003-100 Standard Graver Sharpening Fixture  to use with standard stones.

http://www.progresstool.com/pd_grs_standard_sharpening.cfm

I assume that both the face and heel can be sharpened accurately with the standard fixture? How about grinding 120 degree chisels? Will this one allow that?

How about the repeatable accuracy in setting the angles?

The roller style fixture is the least expensive at 8 bucks, but it appears to be set up for only the face angle and one heel angle. But what can one expect for 8 bucks?
Any good?

http://www.progresstool.com/pd_roller_style_graver_sharpener.cfm

My first instinct is to go with the GRS standard fixture at 88 bucks.

Just had a thought, the ad doesn't say the post is included. 

The post is included here for another 4 bucks.
http://www.grstools.com/toolsharpen.html#dualangle

So, what do y'all think?
Thanks
J.D.

[jerrywh]

Before I got the diamond power hone, I used a fixture and 2 diamond plates. Before that I used stones, But I must add that,  At that time my engraving looked a lot like yours.
  If a person is doing this for profit  or as a partial income then I suggest they buy the best stuff.
 If you just want to make yourself a gun then you can get by with a couple of Diamond plates and a fixture by sharpening on a piece of glass. I never liked Lynton McKenzie's sharpening method. It's too irregular.  If you sharpen exactly the same every time you will acquire a feel to the tool like driving a car. You will just acquire perfect control without much effort. The secret is the fixture.
  The real reason most guys have so much trouble engraving is the way the tool is sharpened.
 When I give instructions to ordinary engravers, I first start out giving a very basic lesson in sharpening gravers, even if the guy is a good engraver.  Every time , without exception, they tell me they can't believe how much difference it makes. It usually always makes a three hundred percent improvement almost overnight. 
  Beginners need to know how to sharpen but more than that they need to understand why the graver has to have that geometry.
  I never read a book or saw a video that really taught all you really need to know about graver sharpening.
    For the most part. Beginners make too long of a heel. too wide of a graver , too low of a face angle and the graver is not really sharp. It just looks sharp to the naked eye.
   If a graver is very much wider than the line you intend to cut it will prevent you from seeing what you need to see.  All the rules of gravers apply to chisels. 
  There are some real good tips on Sam Alfano's web sight.
  This is probably what you need for beginning. Graver Sharpener -Crocker style. look it up.