It isn't as easy as it looks

[Acer Saccharum]

A word of warning on the Crocker style fixture:

I recommended one to a friend as a simple fixture,  not a perfect fixture, but workable. I had one, and gave it to Rich Pierce when I bought my GRS dual angle. Like I said, I thought it was a decent fixture.

The new Crocker fixture from Gesswein, a puveyor of quality goods, was a complete piece of junk. Totally useless. The trunions for the swivel were machined at an odd angle when they should have been straight, the clamp screw that held the graver in place was threaded crooked, the vee that the graver drops into was cast instead of machined. Total junk. Fortunately, with Gesswein, you can return stuff, no questions asked.

[Acer Saccharum]

I HIGHLY recommend the GRS dual angle fixture(GRS #003-570), because everything is totally repeatable. Any angle you want is available with this fixture. You make notes on how to sharpen a tool, go back to touch it up, and by golly, the same angle can be achieved easily. Also, when you read Sam Alfano's suggestions for sharpening, he references this fixture. I can send you my notes on what I use for my sharpenings, and they are referenced from this fixture. This fixture is a sort of 'industry standard' for sharpening.

You can use this fixture with stones, diamond hones, or the GRS sharpening machine. Here is the link for the fixture: http://www.grstools.com/toolsharpen.html#dualangle
The pricetag is approx: $200. You pay more than that for a barrel, or for a nice piece of wood. This will be used over and over, gun after gun, and is built to last a lifetime.

Take note, and this is important: to locate the tool accurately in the fixture, it needs to have a square shank.


Cody, that was brilliant. You can always get more money, but you only get so much time. Speaking of time, my meter's running, I gotta go off to work.

Later,

Tom

[Darrin McDonal]

Take Mark Silvers class at Bowling Green Ky in June or John Schippers ant Conner Prairie. You will save your self alot of aggravation but it wont replace the many hours of practice you will still have to put in.
Darrin

[Evil Monkey]

J.D. I can't comment on the Crocker as I've never even seen one. However, I've heard many poor reviews also and that means alot. That GRS fixure is the one I've used for years until a year or so ago when I got the dual angle one. I still have it and use it for initial sharpening of flat chisels. Something to consider. While the price of the power hone and fixture is a fair bit of cash, like Tom said, we pay that for a barrel. If you lay out the cash and, a year later decide that it's just not for you, you can always sell it. There is ALWAYS people looking for a used sharpening outfit and you shouldn't have any trouble selling it for $40-$50 less than new. That's pretty cheap education. Something else to consider. Many people struggle to sharpen gouges. With the power hone, I just get the angle I want through the use of blocks, lay the gouge across the blocks with the edge on the hone and gently rock the gouge back and forth. Piece of cake. Of course you still strop inside and out but, again, if you keep and label you blocks, it's all repeatable. You asked about sharpening a 120, I'm trying to think here (not something I'm good at) and, while the face would be a piece of cake, it seems to me that the heel would be a pain. I bought the dual angle fixture for doing parrallel heels and I think it is better for heeling 120's but it can't be used for chisels. ANOTHER thing to consider, Tom suggested that the rig is $200. Lets say it $360 (I'm too lazy to do real math) and you only build guns for the next 10 years and you only use the sharpening rig once a month, that's $3 per use, plus interest so lets say $3.30. THAT's pretty cheap for accurate repeatable sharpening not to mention, as jerry said, you sharpen correctly and your work will show it. In 10 years you decide to get out of building so you sell your rig. Likey get $300 or more, now your cost of making your hobby more satisfying and enjoyable is, what, .50 per use???. I dunno man, seems like a no brainer to me.

[Tom Cooper]

I purchased my sharpening system off of e-&%# used and paid a fair amount for it, complete with hone, diamond and ceramic laps and turned out some fair gravers, the system is GRS with the dual angle fixture.

As far as guaranteed repeatable grinds I would have to say not in my case, even with the notes it was alot of trial and error getting the dial lined up just right, may have been the fixture had been dropped prior to my buying it and it needed calibration. I dunno but I did spend more time than I thought necessary trying to get the bits right.

I found the Hamler fixture used and jumped on it, it is 100% guaranteed repeatable angles and it coincides with the templates that Steve Lindsay is selling. If Steve would have had his templates out before I purchased my fixture I would have went that way, simple to use, guaranteed accuracy, inexpensive comparatively.

[jerrywh]

 The GRS equipment is the best thing you can have BUT--- the fixtures will not do you much good unless you have the power hone.  Maybe the lindsey templates will work with diamond bench plates.
 Lindsey has diamong plates real cheap.  Like $40.00 each.
   

[Tom Cooper]

I traded my GRS dual angle fixture for a Pecatonica Lancaster stock and a 7/8"x42" 45cal. barrel, figured that was ample compensation offsetting the cost of the Hamler fixture.

[J. Talbert]

The GRS fixtures are definitely good quality stuff, but as Jerry said, they are not very practical to use without a power hone.
I think Steve Lindsay has built a better mousetrap.  The beauty of his system is its simplicity and repeatability, not to mention that it's easily used with bench stones and laps OR power hones.
There's no dialing up of angles.  If you resharpen with the same jig, you're going to reproduce the same angles.

[Tom Cooper]

Must have my invisibility cloak on again   

[Marty]

OK, so a dumb question here. how did the old timers shape there gravers? did they have some kind of jig and a wet stone?

[jerrywh]

Depends on which old timers your talking about.  American long rifle builders and engravers had pretty primitive tools compared to what most of us have today.  It's not hard to sharpen a graver just to cut the stuff you see on American long rifles but you really need somebody to show you how in person.  In Europe and in America the professional engravers probably had jigs for square gravers. Like everything else in the trades in Europe all that stuff was a closely held secret.
  The problem with stones is they are very slow. If I used stones it would take me three times as long.
 I have all the best stuff and it seems very slow to me even with that.
 Also --- The guns they engraved on were a lot softer than the ones we have now.  Wrought iron is like lead compared to steel.
  The very best long rifle engraver of old couldn't even certify in the American firearms engravers guild today. Sorry folks but that is just a fact.

[Tom Cooper]

The thing about the Lindsay system is it is a companion with the Hamler fixture, the templates are designed to give the same angles.

The Lindsay system will work with a hone as well as bench stones, just takes longer with the stones, the Hamler fixture requires a hone. The Hamler fixture utilizes pins that lock in the templates and it is completely repeatable every time, no looking for the cheat sheet or trying to line up the pointer with the mark on the dial, just insert the pin and cinch up the tension screw.

Saying this or that brand is better than the other is like comparing Chevy, Ford, and Dodge, it is personal preference. There are new and inovative designs coming onto the market that rival any of the older systems.

For the guy on a budget with limited time to learn graver geometry, the Lindsay system is fool proof, literally. If you have acess to some stones, its all the more cheaper.

[T*O*F]

Using 3/16" means you grind a LOT more off.

Sorry, you are correct.  I gave JD incorrect information and part numbers because I just picked up an empty parts bag and read the numbers off it.  I had also bought a dozen of them.

Actually, the graver tips I showed in my original picture are 1/8" not 3/16ths.

[jerrywh]

 Some times I think it is mandatory that one spend $600 or $700 dollars just to learn what he needs.
 People tend to believe what is convenient.

[T*O*F]

There are tons of engraving videos on YouTube, many with the simplest methods and tools.

Do a search on engraving and you will find tutorials on engraving, sharpening, drawing, shading, etc.


(new link....I posted the wrong one before)

[JTR]

  The very best long rifle engraver of old couldn't even certify in the American firearms engravers guild today. Sorry folks but that is just a fact.

Yawn.

John

[lhill]

Sorry Jerry but while i have a great respect for you and your talents I think the work of many of the old engravers would pass the guilds" tests, John Noll in particular. Do you really think its a fair comparison to make between 18th century makers and 21 century perspective? Personally i don't think so, but if you do ,what do you think of comparing today's engavers to the work of Nimschke and Helfricht? ,I don't think 90% of today's engravers could match their work using the same tools and techniques.

[davec2]

I would respectfully suggest that anyone who has not been to the Firearms Engravers Guild of America show in Reno (at least once) should not be quick to compare the engraving of the original 17th, 18th, and 19th century gunmakers, American or European, to the engravers of today - even those who use traditional hammer and hand graving techniques.  Sorry, perhaps one can appreciate the engraving style of the traditional gun makers, the motifs, etc., but I have not seen a single photo of ANY 18th century long rifle engraving that can compare with what I saw at the FEGA show a year ago.  JTR - have you been to a FEGA event?  I would be interested to know your thoughts (beyond the yawn).

[jerrywh]

There are engravers today that use basically the same tools and methods of L.D. Nimschke,Helfricht and John Noll. John noll was not in the Same class as Nimschki or Helfricht. John noll was just  a  good amatuer compared to now days.  The engravers of today are far better than any of the ones in the past. But let me say this . If it weren't for those old guys like Nimschki we might not have obtained such levels as we have in this country.   The late Frank Hendrix was unequaled in my opinion. He only passed away a couple of years ago. Almost all of the great Italian engravers use nothing but hand engravers, chisel and hammer and a magnifying glass. Ron smith and Marty Rabino mostly use nothing but a optivisor. Ron smith can do things that don't seem humanly possible. Lee Griffiths is absolutely estonishing.
  Engravers have used Huge magnifyers for centuries. In the past , especially in europe and england, engravers had a distinct advantage over us today. They came up under a master who could teach them. Also previous to moders times there were many times more engravers than now. Hundreds of them were employed as book illustrators. Most of them were just young boys as young as 10 years old.
  Graver max's and  lyndsey engravers  do not engrave for you. They only push the tool and speed things up.  All the pro engravers I know are able to do the same work with a hammer and chisel. Some ,like me are too old and blind to do bank note style or bolino hand engraving  without a scope.
  Every generation learns from all the previous ones. This enables us to potentially be better than the last generation because we have a head start. We don't have to learn from scratch every generation.
     The fact is--- gunmakers today are better, engravers are better, steel is better etc. - etc- But we owe a tremendous debt to the past generations.  Where we lack is in our morals and our ethics.  somehow that got lost. IMHO
 Ps. Nimschki's layout is unserpassed.

[Acer Saccharum]

I concur with Jerry on this one. The modern American engraving rivals Europe in every sense. We also are developing our own style. But to compare this modern engraving with antique engraving may not do either one justice.

I am very attracted to 18th Century engraving, on both American and European firearms. I want to emulate the styles of this period as best I can in my own work. I think the subject matter also has a lot of appeal for me, especially with the classic Greek and Roman myth figuring so prominently in the European tradition of gun work. Diana, Mars, Neptune, etc. showing up in various scenes, hunters and beasts all intertwined with fantastic foliage. That's the stuff I like.

Much of the modern American engraving is very close to perfection in terms of technique. However, I find this perfection a bit cold, lifeless. This is a general statement, for there are examples of modern engraving that are over the top artistically and technically beautiful, AND alive.

I much prefer the antique engraving, even with lines that are not quite parallel, shading with over runs, presentation of anatomy and foliage a bit out of proportion. This lack of perfection adds a certain element of 'folkiness' or character that I find very appealing. Same with the American longrifle, where the carving and engraving are real folk art.

Tom

Many examples of fine contemporary engraving can be found on the "Engaver's cafe" forum:  http://www.igraver.com/forum/gallery/photoplog/index.php

[JTR]

With all due respect, if you judge the original Kentucky rifles on the quality or lack of quality of its engraving, you’re sadly missing the true beauty of the rifles.
That modern engravers can surpass those of yesterday is of no importance or concern when judging original guns. That someone today can build a gold plated jewel studded gun is like comparing a model T ford to a modern Ferrari.
So what!
The Ferrari takes absolutely nothing away from the model T. In fact, the T will always have a much more important place in history than the Ferrari, even though the Ferrari is a much more refined car.
To compare modern engraving with what was done on the frontier of America 200 years ago is a shallow and meaningless comparison, pointless, and totally out of context with the question at hand, and simply shows a lack of respect and understanding of the skill of the old makers.

As for FEGA, I was a member for a couple of years, and I also read Sam’s and Steve’s engraving forum sites. I also enjoy studying modern engraved guns and knifes at the Las Vegas show so I’m well aware of the quality and excellence of the work being done today.   
Given a choice I’ll continue to collect original Kentucky’s over modern guns, but would rather drive a Ferrari than a model T.

Just my opinion, others may vary,

John 

[jerrywh]

Well put.
  Modern cars look real bad at a antique car show also, even if the new cars are better.

[t.caster]

JTR, I can identify with your remarks, as I am also involved in streetrods & oldies. It is an opinion I have also had but wasn't quite sure how to phrase it. I try to emulate the engraving of old with it's free flowing spirit.

[lhill]

Jeryyh, you are absolutely right, Mr. Hendrix work is probably unsurpassed by anyone working today. I guess the point I was trying to make was better stated by acer. Noll,  nimschke, cuno helfrict, et al. there work seems so ALIVE compared to allot of today's engravers. not that there work isn't well executed,$#*! most looks like a photograph, they just seem to lack something. Nimschke could lay out a pattern on a colt single action and it looked like part of the gun not like it was "applied"to the surface. hope this makes sense,thanks,

[jerrywh]

Nimschki and Frank Hendrix were german engravers or trained in Germany. Their style shows that. It is rather old school and more pronounced. Chris Castiel's stuff is a lot like German stuff. . There are still engravers like that today but not many.  I like to do both because I get bored doing one kind. It is a lot harder to do the real light stuff, but it is a lot more fun doing the old style engraving. I have been practicing miniature portraits. They are extremely hard to get right.  There were great portrait engravers in the past but they never did guns much. Nimschki did some portraits on guns.
   Here's a good tidbit for you guys. The only thing Frank Hendrix used for magnification was a magnifying glass that was fixed inside of a tin can. The tin can had a coat hanger sized wire wrapped around it and the other end was twisted to some kind of base. when he wanted to move the magnifying  glass he just bent the wire. Another guy you would probably like is Joe Rundell.