shooting Jim Kibler's flintlock

[Dphariss]

With ff I would jump the powder charge to 100-110. I would also try FFF at 90-100 grains.

Dan

[Daryl]

I would too - powder charge & type testing - I'd also test the current patches by re-using some.  If you can't re-use them - perhaps pick up some 'better' material, Mike.

When looking at patches, people sometimes miss the scorching that happends prior to burnouts. The brownish burning of the cloth on each groove.  When patches do that in colder weather, they usually fail in warm weather or with a warm barrel - ie: insufficiently thick.  That you can shoot repeatedly, without having to wipe, shows sufficient lube.

[Flinter]

Dphariss, I am going to start some load testing tomorrow. Since I have both 3f and 2f, I plan on using both.

Daryl, I ordered some precut .020 patches that mic at .019. I cannot reuse the fired patches, because they are frayed out quite a bit around the edges. Other than that, I could reuse the patches. I do not think the patches have a tight enough weave. This will be corrected when I go to a good fabric store in Little Rock.

I have everything to make the WW fluid lube. I am going to PM you for a little better instruction on how to male up the solution.
The patches look a little brown around the ball area, but the color does not extend into the patch grove area. 

I am going to take your advice on using a three shot group instead of the ten shots.

The results will be posted later this week.

Mike

[Daryl]

The brown I was referring to, is easily interpreted (with an eye-hoop) as scorching in the groove-area on the patch, not just the base of the ball.
Most patches fray a bit on the outside, too much, ie: back to the ball's bearing area could be too loose a weave, I'd guess as well.

To much scorching on the ball's base could be seen as perhaps too little or insufficient quality lube in the lube.

[Flinter]

This is the first day I could get out and shoot. All targets were shot using .021 denim soaked in Hoppes patch lube.
The powder used was 3f Goex. The distance was 50 yards shot off sand bags.









Daryl, this is what you are talking about. This target was shot using a pre cut .019 lubed with Hoppes.
The patch in the photo has scorch marks in the grove area.



One thing is for sure. I am going to use the .530 Ball. I can easily load this with a 3/8 inch ramrod I made for the rifle.
Now, I do not have to carry the 7/16 rod.


Mike

[Daryl]

Yes- Mike- there appears to be considerbly blowby on the light coloured patch.

It is difficult to se it that is happening on the striped  ticking patch.

Although the patches are maintaining their integrity at this point - in the summer time with warmer temps, it's quite likely they would fail.  If the temps are warm now, then perhaps they'd be OK, but tighter should give better accurcy overall.

A 3 shot group with each powder charge is not enough to judge a particular combination's capability.  Several or many 3 shot groups would, or a couple 4 shot groups.  Overlay your targets and re-mark onto a single plain paper to get a better idea of the actual grouping - look for multiple concentrations of holes - fliers happens to everyone, now and then.  Firing quickly is a good idea as long as you don't let barrel heat wreck groups.

That 95gr. of 3f with the ticking patch appears to have potential for a hunting load.  Needs ore testing- however if judging by the single 85gr.3F target, one would discount it. You cannot go by a single target.  However, we've always received better accuracy in .50 through 69 calibre with 2F over 3F.  We do NOT find 2F fouls more - and we seem to use MUCH heavier charges than most poeple - I wonder why?  Well, not really.

 

[Flinter]

Well, it’s raining today, so I guess I’ll go through the tedious task of cutting patches.
It is a shame that I cannot use the 400 precut patches I bought, but I guess that is the way life goes. The .021 patches do not show any blow by, even with the 95 grain load of 3f.
To be truthful, I shot another round of 85 grain .530 ball, and the target group was not good as the one pictured.
 I cannot see any difference in the fowling between the 3f and 2f, although the 3f seems to have a crack or sharper sound when firing, but that could just be my imagination.
I will defiantly do some more testing with the 95 grain 3f load. I need to find a load that I will use in this year’s 200 yard round ball shoot.

I have a few questions.  
I made a tapered ramrod to fit my rifle. Instead of flipping the rod over, I pull the rod out and it goes straight into the barrel. There may be a little fowling on the rod tip, so will this hurt anything with the burnt powder going down into the rod channel?
When I buy some .021/.022 cotton patch material, will the cloth shrink in thickness when I wash it?
When I am shooting like this, I notice the flash pan is damp looking. Could this be caused by the damp patches I am using?  

ETA
I made up some WW fluid/neatsfoot patch lube. I plan on trying this and one other patch lube.

Mike

[Leatherbelly]

Hello Flinter,
  Try some 2f goex. I'd try 90gr and go up in 5 gr increments. Might tighten that group up. IMO

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I make all my rods tapered with a brass fitting on the small (inside) end.  I use the small end to push the ball down, so I don't have to flip the rod to load, and then again to return it to the stock.  I am unconcerned about any fouling that goes into the rod hole.

The new cloth will have sizing in it, and will be stiff and feel thick.  Washing the material in cold water, and hang to dry, before cutting the patches removes the sizing, and any shrinkage is minimal.  If you use hot water and a dryer, yes, you'll shrink the material, and likely increase its thickness.  So, cold water, and hang to dry.

The fouling from black powder sucks moisture out of the air - that's what you're seeing in the pan.  None of the liquid from your patch exits the vent.

90-95 grains of FFFg is a pretty stiff load for punching paper, though it will be close to your most accurate load.  My .50 cal Virginy likes 85 gr. FFg GOEX, so you are in the right neighbourhood.  But try FFg rather than FFFg.

[Flinter]

I posted this photo a couple pages back in this thread. This was my best target shot at 50 yards using 91 grains of 2f and Hoppes lubed .021 denim patches with the .530 ball.
Daryl suggested I shoot a three shot group, and then move to another load. This is a lot easier. Leatherbelly, I am going to up the charge (91 on the 2f 5 gr. at a time) like you suggested and see what happens. 
Taylor, thanks for your comment on the rod. I would use the rod that Jim built, but I don’t want to break it. I am rough on them. 

I went to Little Rock yesterday shopping with the Old Lady. We went to Hancock Fabric. I bought two yards of .022 denim, two yards of .023 100% cotton, and about a yard and a half of .021 pillow ticking.
I washed the ticking a couple times in cold water and the cloth was softer. I could not detect a change in thickness.
When you guys buy patch material by the yard, do you always wash it? 
Also, I take a round piece of cardboard, mark the cloth with a black Sharpie, and then cut out the patch. Is this the way you guys cut your patches?

Mike

[Leatherbelly]

Hi Mike,
  I usually use a 1  inch to 1 1/4" tapered bearing RACE,depending on caliber,and a large single ball bearing. I lay the cloth over the race, place the large ball bearing on the cloth and the race and lightly hit the ball bearing with my hammer.Makes a perfect round patch.
  Daryls gave me a piece of what appears to be titanium pipe, with a inside diameter of just less then an inch.Works great for my fifty. Same procedure. Pipe is an inch and a half long so I can bang off thirty patches until the pipe fills up with patches,take out and knock off another load in a matter of a few minutes. I put this appurattus (sp) on my little anvil for a nice hard base and bang away!
  Go to your local brake and alignment shop for races, heavy machine shop for a big ball bearing.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Daryl and I make our pre-cut patches using a bearing race, and a ball bearing.  I have a 12" piece of railroad rail welded upside down to a piece of heavy steel, and sitting on a stump in my shop, that I use for an anvil.  I place the bearing race on this, cover the race with the patch material, and give it a whack with a hammer.  It cuts a perfectly round disc of cloth a little larger that the hole in the race, because of the curve of the ball bearing.  This gives very frugal use of the material, since one can cut patches right next to each other, and in no time at all, you can cut hundreds of patches.
These races are from all different types of bearings, and are as follows: 1.495", 1.180", .980", .865", .843", and the balls are 1 5/8" and 1 3/8".  I have some smaller races too, but this gives you the idea.

[Leatherbelly]

 Taylor beat me to the punch. Probably explaned better too,lol!

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

You beat me to it Roy!

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

We're having trouble agreeing on who was first.

[smylee grouch]

That sounds like a great way to cut patches, will have to give it a try, but Taylor, do you lube the patches befor or after you cut them?      Gary

[Leatherbelly]

 , , ....

[doulos]

Boy, you guys are meticulous.  I just cut my patches square. And use the lines on the pillow ticking for a reference. I usually leave them in strips when I lube them and cut them at the range. Ive never seen a difference in accuracy between my hand cut  and store bought patches.  And some of mine are a little too big. I know Flinter was only asking about cutting method but I have to add I dont think it matters that much as far as accuracy is concerned.  I just use sciccors because its easier. Patch thickness and lube seems to matter more for accuracy to me.

[Leatherbelly]

  Range time is important to me, so I "make ready" at home, prelubed patches ad nauseum, so when I hit the trail, no fitsky ditsky! We usually shoot all day long. That means 60-80 shots out of the pouch. No need to carry scissors or a bottle of patch lube. Our range is a woodswalk. No shooting boxes or pick-up trucks!

[Daryl]

Mike- we put the patches int he tin and then pour in the lube, let them soak it up until thoroughly wet, then gently squeeze out the excess letting that run back into the bottle.  If you pulled out 3 patches together and sweezed them hard between your fingers, you'd get a drop of excess lube. That's about right.

We do not believe that licking a patch is a spit patch.  If the patch splashes the guy beside you when the ball is smacked down flush with the muzzle, then that's spit or wet patched.

I-too use the bearing race and ball.  I will also use an arch punch. Another method is to use a hole saw of the appropriate size, grind the teeth off it to an edge, and use it in the drill press.
To make this, grind the 'set' off the outside of the 'drill'. Cut a hole through 2 sheets of 1" plywood. Then grind off the teeth and sharpen the saw.
The chuck the 'drill' in the press, and lay multi-thicknesse of cloth between the two sheets of ply with the holds lined up over a sheet of UHMW or HDPE.  Run the drill through the holes andyou ahve whatedver number of patches- to what number of thicknesses of material you used - 5, 10, or 200 - whatever.

Cutting patches with a bearing race and ball is faster than cutting squares with sissors.  Beware- get the balls from a heavy equipment shop only. Trying to buy a 1 1/2" or 1 5/8" bearing will probably run $50.00 to $75.00 each - I was given a price of $75.00 for 1 5/8".

Arch punches are cheap, ie: about $25.00 or less.  I went to the plastics fabricating shop and bought a chunk of UHMW (HDPE) 2" X 10" X 6" for $10.00.  I even picked one up for Taylor at that price. These make cutting with an Arch punch easy, without damaging the edge.  It is much better than wood or lead.

[Leatherbelly]

 Are large bearing balls hard to find? Mine are 1.975". Had a bucket full at work.  Bigger balls are better.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The measurements I gave for the races was the inside diameter...the patch ends up being a little larger than that.  Any garage or machine shop will have a pile of junked races.  The balls come from huge bearings at a motor winding shop, (motors for the logging industry) or they can be purchased new for about $10.

[Daryl]

Guess I went to the wrong bearing shop - I was quoted $75.00 per bearing.

[Flinter]

After I read the first couple of post after my scissor comment, I immediately drove to town and bought a bearing race set. I am going to talk to a machinist tomorrow about a ball bearing. He works on heavy equipment, so he should have a few of them.
I have made gaskets for different things out of gasket material by using a ball peen hammer penning the steel around the inside and outside of what I wanted to seal. I never thought of a bearing race and a large ball bearing. You guys just made my black powder shooting more fun.
Daryl, I have a bunch of circular hole saws and a drill press. I may try this later. I am curious about the arch punch. I have a set of leather punches, and I cut leather by placing it against the grain end of a board. What do you use as a backing when cutting patches with an arch punch? If UHMW is a polyurethane board, then I have a 5’x1’x1/2” thick piece.

Mike

[Daryl]

Mike, 1/2" is too thin in myopinion - I tried it - as you'll end up breaking it. That is why the 2" to 4" thick pieces are better. End grain on a very cense piece of timber will work - for a while.  The poly is much better.  I've seen guys use a blockof lead - OK - but not if you are spit patching.

Here, the stuff is called UHMW - Ultra High Molecular Weight

In the States, I've seen it called HDPE - High Density Poly-Ethylene - or maybe it's Poly-urethane - does nt matter,w aht matters is this thick and selt-healing to a degree- like the cutting board material- also used in butcher shops - white only.

The coloured material is brand new, but made from cuttings - re-potted. Here, the die must be put in non-single process material, hense the colours. Only white is allowed for butcher shops.