shooting Jim Kibler's flintlock

[Daryl]

Indeed, Mike - follow Taylor's advice.  When we're shooting the trail, only one out of a dozen guys even wipes his frizzen's face, let alone the pan or bottom of the frizzen.  This is over a course of fire that can run only 45 shots, or up to almost 90. No wiping, anywhere, bore or frizzen.

The flint seems to be capable of wiping the frizzen clean each time it strikes & there is no more than one shot's fouling on it - barely anything. A thumb or dry patch will wipe that off.  It takes a lot of shooting before the fouling under the pan eactually lifts it off the surface & even that makes no difference to the shooting.  Our longest and most challenging shots are at or near the end of the trail. No one suffers accuracy problems on them - expecially Taylor - who's hit the chicken egg at 74 yards, winning the pot, twice now. The second time, it was around $120.00 - no wiping anytime, anywhere.

[Flinter]

Taylor you said, “I would not let anything chemical other than water get near the rifle." I am going to take your advice on this.
I hate to admit it, but I might as well be truthful. I clean all my firearms with fluid from a Zep parts cleaner. I will stop using this on Jim’s rifle. so..
Let me ask. Would it be OK to use Hoppes #9 bore cleaner while cleaning the inside of the barrel for storage?

Daryl, I think I may just be getting a little nervous. There is a wealth of information on this site, so thanks for the post.
Yea, don’t ya just hate someone that wins every shooting match, a chicken egg at 74 yards? WOW!

Good shooting Taylor.

Mike

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Mike, I've seen so many lovely rifles' finishes ruined by a run of alcohol, Fantastik, windshield cleaner, etc.  it would break my heart to see Jim's loving care scared by some chemical that is not necessary.  Clean your rifle with cold water - that's it - just cold water, and a tight fitting cotton flanell patch on a jag.  Save your Hoppe's 9 Plus for patch lube and target shooting.  
...and thanks for the compliments on the shooting.  We shot at that egg since March 18th and just hit it a couple weeks ago.  Then the next two shooters, Daryl being the first, hit what was left of the shell.  I was lucky my name was drawn first.

[Flinter]

Thanks Taylor. I will take your advice on the cleaning. Yes, I have been wanting a custom early wood patch box flintlock for many years now. I try to take care of Jim's rifle. The butt has never been on the ground while loading. I use a car/truck floor matt for this.

If you don't mind me asking: what caliber and charge do you use in the rifle you hit the egg with.

Mike

 

[Daryl]

I can answer that for Taylor- if the Virginia, a plinking load of .495" ball, .020" denim patch and 85gr. of 2F.  Rather I think it was the .50 he used - if not, then the .40 Kuntz, with .395" ball, .020" denim patch and 60gr. 3F.  Maybe I can't answer that for him - HA!  I know it wasn't his 20 bore smoothie - in that, he uses .605" ball, 85gr. 2F and .020" denim patch.

[Flinter]

A .020" patch. That says a lot. I am shooting a .535" ball with a .018" patch. I can tell a world of difference between this and a .010" patch.
Moderators please excuse my language, but I am having a heck of a time getting my ball/patch started. David Crisalli is working on a bullet board/ball starter, and I have a tee handle type ball starter ordered. 
Jim's rifle is ever so slightly cones, so it is me or my problem. 

Thanks Daryl, I may try a .020" patch later.

Mike
 

[Roger Fisher]

A .020" patch. That says a lot. I am shooting a .535" ball with a .018" patch. I can tell a world of difference between this and a .010" patch.
Moderators please excuse my language, but I am having a heck of a time getting my ball/patch started. David Crisalli is working on a bullet board/ball starter, and I have a tee handle type ball starter ordered. 
Jim's rifle is ever so slightly cones, so it is me or my problem. 

Thanks Daryl, I may try a .020" patch later.

Mike
 

Remember to check your shot patches for tearing.  You shouldn't find any that are burned through loading good and tight thataway...  

[Flinter]

Daryl

After watching your two videos, I am now a firm believer in a good ball starter. I magine some of you guys saw the photo of the ball starter I have been using, surely at least one of ya fell out of your computer chair laughing. but… I’m learning.  

Anyway, thanks for sending me the two videos. Below is a photo of one of the starters I made today. I plan on testing them out tomorrow.



Roger

I picked up a couple of patches, and both of them have been rained on. Both patches were fired using the powder measure you sent me. The patch on the left is .018” while the other one is a .010” patch. It looks like the thin patch had a rough day. I plan on shooting some .020” patches with different patch lube.
Now that I have a starter, the 20s should not be a problem.







Mike

[Roger Fisher]

Daryl

After watching your two videos, I am now a firm believer in a good ball starter. I magine some of you guys saw the photo of the ball starter I have been using, surely at least one of ya fell out of your computer chair laughing. but… I’m learning. 

Anyway, thanks for sending me the two videos. Below is a photo of one of the starters I made today. I plan on testing them out tomorrow.



Roger

I picked up a couple of patches, and both of them have been rained on. Both patches were fired using the powder measure you sent me. The patch on the left is .018” while the other one is a .010” patch. It looks like the thin patch had a rough day. I plan on shooting some .020” patches with different patch lube.
Now that I have a starter, the 20s should not be a problem.







Mike

Yup, tolja!

            Your photos do surely tell the story of tooo thin a patch.

[Flinter]

Roger

The .010" patch was the worst of the four I found. The .018" patch was the only one I could find.
I guess I need to rake some leaves.

Mike

[Daryl]

Thought that was the range warden's job?  it is around here.

[Leatherbelly]

 Taylor hit the egg with that Cherman Jaeger.  60 cal., 580 ball,.030 patch, 85 gr 2f,the bugga!   he cheats, neatsfoot oil for lube.

[Daryl]

Naaa - it was that cheatin' Virginia - 2 weeks ago - maybe 3 now.  For the first egg he hit, I think he used the Virginia .50 as well, or maybe that slim Kuntz .40, when it was much closer. Remember- 1st name drawn, bang- splat.  Of course, Jody was the very first to hit an egg - again, closer than now - maybe 55yards. She used her Mom's .58 full stocked Hawken - all 11 pounds of it.  No wonder she shoots it so well- too heavy to wonder off target - another cheatin' gun. HA!

BTW - he uses a .595" ball in the Jaeger - same quib load as the Virginia - 85gr.

[Flinter]

Daryl

I spent most of the day blowing and raking leaves, so I could find my patches. Yea… the Range Master mows and rakes leaves, but she could care less about the condition of my patches. I cannot understand why though, because she knows if I get mad, I will tear off cabinet doors and the likes.

I moved up my powder charge to 85 grains and got the group below at 50 yards. The two holes at the bottom of the plate was fired yesterday.



 The next target was shot using 92 grains. When I cleaned it I noticed there was a lot more powder residue than with the 85 grain load.



This target was shot at 100 yards using the 92 grain load. This is by far better than my T/C will do.




Mike

[Daryl]

It's coming together, Mike - way to go.  The difference between 50 and 100 is striking.  I suspect 100 will shoot better yet at 100, and as well or better at 50.

I notice the ticking patch is slightly cut on each land.  This is usually caused by a slightly too-sharp muzzle crown.  I'd use some emery between the crown and my thumb, rotating my hand to cut material smoothly, and rotating the barrel every 10 seconds or so to keep the crown even.  what you are looking for, is smoothly rounded corners or edges where the machine cut crown shows an edge which is fairly sharp.

Here's a barrel stub I crowned to do the ITX ball and patch combo testing.  i used Taylor's lathe which sped up the job, but didn't make it any different than I have done with my thumb.  this crown is a bit smoother than actually needed, but with the hard balls, I wanted to be as easy on the patch as possible.  My .40 barrel is crowned very similarly to this - looks just about identical.


 Instead of sharp angles and corners, the metal edge is softened. This helps swage the ball and patch into the muzzle without tearing on the lands.  At times, a slightly 'rough' bore will make the same damage, however I've not witnessed that with my barrels.  Making a smooth crown usually eliminates cutting of all sorts.
Once the crown is re-done so there aren't any corners, a slightly thicker patch can be used which should eliminate the heavier charge making any noticable fouling in the bore in comparrison to a lesser charge.

Your rifle obviously prefers the heavier charge - as do most.  As Forsyth said, more powder flattens trajectory and shoots more accurately as well.  The improved accuracy happens as long as the ball and patch are up to the increased pressure.  If accuracy drops off with increased powder- check the patches. You might find burns or cuts and burns.  As the pressure increases, tighter combinations have to be used, unless, of course, those combinations are being used already.

[Larry Pletcher]

I notice the ticking patch is slightly cut on each land.  This is usually caused by a slightly too-sharp muzzle crown.  I'd use some emery between the crown and my thumb, rotating my hand to cut material smoothly, and rotating the barrel every 10 seconds or so to keep the crown even.  what you are looking for, is smoothly rounded corners or edges where the machine cut crown shows an edge which is fairly sharp.

Here's a barrel stub I crowned to do the ITX ball and patch combo testing.  i used Taylor's lathe which sped up the job, but didn't make it any different than I have done with my thumb.  this crown is a bit smoother than actually needed, but with the hard balls, I wanted to be as easy on the patch as possible.  My .40 barrel is crowned very similarly to this - looks just about identical.



 Instead of sharp angles and corners, the metal edge is softened. This helps swage the ball and patch into the muzzle without tearing on the lands.  At times, a slightly 'rough' bore will make the same damage, however I've not witnessed that with my barrels.  Making a smooth crown usually eliminates cutting of all sorts.
Once the crown is re-done so there aren't any corners, a slightly thicker patch can be used which should eliminate the heavier charge making any noticable fouling in the bore in comparrison to a lesser charge.

Here is Daryl's pic.  An ending bracket was left out.

Regards,
Pletch

[Flinter]

Larry

I cut the HTML code and pasted it into another web browser.
Thanks for clearing it up.

You guys don’t know me real good yet. I crushed my lower left tibia when a Dodge ¾ ton 4x4 Cummings diesel truck brake disk fell about 10 inches. The truck slipped off the jack. I will take your advice, but I do not want Jim saying, “Mike, you did WHAT!”
 
I miked the OX Yoke patches, and they were .014”. I found some cotton denim that measures .021.” I am also going to try some different patch lube. so…  Daryl, you don’t think 100 grains of 2f is too much powder?

Mike

[Daryl]

TKs pletch- I'd have noticed today. Didn't go back in to re-check it yesterday. Not sure how it happened, but IT happens.
Nasty accident, Mike.
It takes powder to shoot the longer ranges.  More powder makes the gun more accurate at the longer ranges and reduces the trajectory as well. 100gr.2F (I assume) is not a heavy charge in a .54.
For only deer, more power it isn't necessary when hunting in thick brush, but in more open areas where long shots might have to be made, the flatter the trajectory, the better.

[Flinter]

I feel a little better now. Had honey-do’s all day today. I am going to try some .021" denim in the morning and work up to 100 grains of 2f. I don’t know. The weave tightness or thread count probably has a lot to do with patch material. I’ll see.

Mike

[Flinter]

I changed from using the pre lubed patch to a .021 cotton denim patch dipped in Hoppes patch lube. I pulled the patch from the bottle and between my thumb and finger just to get the excess fluid off the patch. I could tell a 100% difference in loading and a little better target groups. The powder charge was 91/92 grains of 2f.
This photo is ten shots at 50 yards.



This target is three shots at 100 yards. The two small holes are from my 7mm mag, using a Leopold scope.  



ETA

I might as well be truthful, so you guys can correct me, no matter how embarrassing it may be.
I think I am packing my powder too tight. When the ball is seated, I bring the ram rod up about six or seven inches and forcefully run the rod against the ball three times. Enough so that I noticed my 7/16” range rod is dented by the barrel lands at the cone area. I guess I am terrified of the ball being above the powder, a space between the ball and powder, and blowing my barrel up.

I had to change my flint. Do I need to change the leather when I do this? Also, do you guys just judge the flint placement? That would be gap from the flint cutting edge to the frizzen with the hammer set at half cock?  

Mike

[Roger Fisher]

Mike: Re: your last post.   Truth be told, she should shoot tighter than a pie plate at 100 yds rest....

Don't need to change the leather each time you change the flint;  But after the leather gets 'hardened' and flattened so it shines then  change.  Of course more often can't hurt.

Set the leather wrapped flint in the jaws but not hard tightened.  At half draw w/frizzen closed (pointed in safe direction and unloaded) Leave the hammer down slowly so it self  lines up against the frizzen then back to half draw then tight down.

[Daryl]

On the picture of the starters I sent you- or maybe even posted here, you can see the shorter studs, but also one shows a hole.  Note also, when I loaded the .45 longrifle and the double gun, I placed the starter over the rod (sitting on the ball) and gave it a thump with my palm. this doesn't damage the ball and puts the ball down on the powder the same each time.

Thowing the rod down onto the ball with speed, badly flattens the ball. As an accuracy oriented person of the last 1800's would say -"look,  he meals the powder".  We would say, he's pulvertizing the powder and changing it's burn rate.  After loading normally (for me) I said to Taylor- look - I  loaded normally.  I then put the rod on the ball, then lifted it 12" and dropped the rod.  It bounced back up about 6". By the sound made when the rod hit the ball, it was evident the ball was hard on the powder. Due to the method of loading, it's the same or virtually the same each time.  That is important for consistancy.  I've seen a number of guys throw the rod down, time after time until it bounces off the ball.  I can't start to imagine what the ball looks like.  It is important to have the ball down hard, but throwing the rod onto the ball isn't the best way to get that condition. It isn't a pile driver.  We know from ctg. gun shooting with BP, that 'lightly' compressed usually gives the best accuracy.  Compressed too much opens groups. Not compressed enough opens groups.

In either event, a loss of consistancy is the result of throwing the rod - which might be the flyers or some of the flyers you're seeing on the targets.  3 throws, was the common method of loading a musket by the US Military - it's how they were taught.  It is not the best way to load an accuracy gun. 

 Pretty good 7 shots at 50 and 2 of the shots at 100 -  for a 'newby' to flint.  It's coming, Mike.  You should feel pretty good about what you are accomplishing.

When chronographing loads, I found the system I use gave me the most consistant results and the highest average velocities.  If the patched ball is only seated onto the powder with a very slight 'bump', the velocity averaged about 50fps lower, but jumped around a lot with a great deal of variation.  Loaded like I did in the 2 video's, the shot to shot velocities were in the 15fps range for the .45 and only 8 to 10 for the short barreled double .58. Unfortunately, I lost that data and will have to re-test for my loading manual.

About the flint's position out of the jaws - lock to lock differences dictate different amounts of flint sticking out the jaws.  When you get the right size (length) of flint, sitting at it's most rearward position against the jaw screw will be it's 'perfect' postion for a new flint.  The leathers I use have a hole in them in the middle, so the flint can sit farther back.  I find this necessary for all my locks. With an L&R, 1/2 cock position should see the lfint touching, but not lifting the frizzen.  A chambers has a little more rearward position at 1/2 cock, so there is a gap between the edge adnthe frizzen.
What make of lock?

[doulos]

Flinter,
I am not an expert, but I dont think you can pack black powder too tight by hand.  Balck powder shoots better with some compression. But the compression has to be consistent too.  If you saw how much BPCR shooter compress black powder in cases you would be surprised. I use a compression die to compress black powder in a 45-70 case.  One thing I think you can do though is damage and deform the ball.

[Flinter]

Thanks Roger, I will try that. The rifle was shooting fine until I changed the flint. The hole to the right on the 100 yard target had four flash in the pan. Then, it fired on the fifth try after I changed another flint. I changed the original flint, I think, on the seventh shot at the 50 yard target. 

Daryl, The starters in the photo was by PM, and I watched your two loading and shooting videos off and on for three days. I think I might cut my ram rod to 46” round off the rod to fit my ball starter and load like you do in the video. I am not throwing the rod onto the ball. I am holding the rod tight and forcefully ramming the rod against the seated ball. Yes, if you were there, you would say, "look, he meals the powder."
On the lock, Jim said. “…is a modified Jim Chambers early Ketland.” 
The first photo is the one that came in Jim’s rifle, and the next one is the flint that is in the rifle now. That flint was ordered from Track of wolf, and it is a 3/4x7/8” number FLINT-ENG-6. Monday, I am going to order some 7/8 x 1" FLINT-ENG-7 flints. 





I hate to say this, but I missed a massive 8 pt. this morning. About daylight the 7 pt. I shot at last month came by my stand and acted spooked. I figured he either saw me move or caught my sent. I had one good shot in the rear, but I decided not to shoot him. We have a 3 pt. rule, and I did not get a good look at his horns. About 15 minutes later, an 8 pt. was following the other buck. He stopped about 20 steps from me with his nose on the ground. When he looked up, I pulled the trigger. He ran off when he saw the flash in the pan. Man!
When the flint burns the pan powder with the rifle not going off, there is another problem and not the flint. I have a vent pick coming, so could this be my problem. 
I clean the flintlock different than my T/C. I notice that there are powder grains on the patch. Could this be getting into the touch hole?
I’m sure doing something wrong doulos.

If I don’t prove my manhood and bring home the meat, the Old Lady may find someone that can. 


Mike

[Daryl]

I thought I'd sent you a picture of some of my starters - that's what I was referring to, Mike.  Too bad about that buck.  If the pan flashes - more times than not, the main-charge powder is either damp from moisture or oil, or - with a fouled gun, there is fouling in the vent hole.