.54 and 15/16" barrel, plus contact for Fred Miller

[BrentD]

I am looking at building a pistol grip Hawken rifle for my own use.  Because there is no one that actually has a pre-shaped blank for this type of Hawken, I will be starting with a plank I cut on my property 10 yrs ago.  This means drilling the ramrod hole and cutting a barrel channel. I can probably do that myself, but years ago I had Fred Miller from somewhere out east do these two chores for me, and I really like the guy and the work he did, so I could see farming this out to him again. However, I have lost his contact information.  Does anyone have this? 

Also, I am soliciting opinions about the barrel for my intended.  Because this will be a hunting rifle, I want it to be light weight.  I have seen far too many 10 and 12 lb Hawkens and I just don't want one.  I'd like to shoot for 8 lbs give or take say 1/2 lb.  It will be .54 caliber for sure, and probably 34-36" in length.  My intent is to use a Green Mt because they make such a barrel and I have a coupon that I won to help pay for it. 

But is a 15/16" .54 going to allow for a well screwed on rib?  Or should I just solder it and hope that holds?  It seems I have seen a lot of solder joint fail on other's rifles. 

If someone makes a tapered barrel (from nonleaded steels) that would work I might consider it, but I have never seen a tapered barrel on a Hawken (perhaps that says more about me than Hawken rifles).   

This project is beginning to come together as I spec out parts and compare options.  I think I'll have a good time building it this winter.

Thanks for any and all advice. 
Brent

[C Wallingford]

Fred's phone number and address is:
570-922-1861
4025 Red Ridge Road
Mifflinburg, PA 17844

[BrentD]

Thanks!
Brent

[Ted Kramer]

Brent,

There's meat enough there for screws as long as it's done carefully.

It'll make a nice light-weight hunting rifle.

Ted K.

[keweenaw]

If you solder the rib on correctly, there isn't any "hope it holds", because it will hold!  There would be enough wall thickness to screw on a rib if you were careful.  I would use a fine thread screw like a 6-48 and would finish with a tap ground with almost no lead so that the threads would go to the bottoms of the holes.  Sights on centerfire rifle barrels were typically screwed on with less wall thickness than the 0.188" you would have assuming a groove depth of 0.010"

Tom

[northmn]

If you solder the rib on correctly, there isn't any "hope it holds", because it will hold!  There would be enough wall thickness to screw on a rib if you were careful.  I would use a fine thread screw like a 6-48 and would finish with a tap ground with almost no lead so that the threads would go to the bottoms of the holes.  Sights on centerfire rifle barrels were typically screwed on with less wall thickness than the 0.188" you would have assuming a groove depth of 0.010"

Tom

Good of advice as I can offer.  Except to say that solder, if done right holds.  I have done so with fowlers .  Believe it or not the old 50/50 tin lead is about as good as any and flows better.

DP

[P.W.Berkuta]

I have made quite a few Hawkens in .54 with 15/16 GM barrels and barrel length's from 32" to 36" long. If you want to stay around 8 pounds I suggest no more than a 34" barrel with a dense maple stock. One of the .54 I built with a 36" 15/16 GM barrel ended up in the 9+lbs range. I will be putting some barrels up for sale on the "for sale" board this Sat and one of them will be a special order straight taper 42" long - have to check - either .50 or .54 - Orion barrel that I ordered back when Jerry Cunningham was making barrels. I forgot what the taper is - have to check. I will post all info on Sat. I have soldered all but 1 rib and never had any trouble in fact I had one rifle returned for a new stock because it was ran over by a car during a hunting trip and the rib and barrel were in tack with no damage and after it was restocked it shot to the same point of aim as when it was first built - I call that bullet proof  !!

[BrentD]

Thanks for the comments about soldering. I would say that my soldering skills suck but that would be a lie, and being honest, would require unnecessary vulgarity. 

The wood will be walnut.  Rather plain and straight grained walnut to boot.  I know that is not "correct" for most or maybe all Hawkens, but that's what I want, and this rifle is all about me. 

Brent

[Roger B]

If you want to remain authentic for a Hawken you will need a tapered barrel.  You certainly could go 1" to 15/16" & get what you want, but more commonly they went 1 1/8" to 1" in the 1/2 stock versions.  Plains rifles were heavy.  You could also  just build a pistol grip halfstock or full stock (generic plains rifle) & use your 15/16" barrel.
Roger B.

[T*O*F]

Thanks for the comments about soldering. I would say that my soldering skills suck but that would be a lie, and being honest, would require unnecessary vulgarity.

Old Fox's "Tried and True" Method for affixing ribs.
1. Find the appropriate size sinker nails for a #6 screw.  I think it's a #10 sinker.  Cut the points off and dress the ends.  Thread 3or 4 (your preference) of them in either 6-32 or 6-48 (best).  Set aside for later.
2.  Fit and solder your thimbles to the rib.
3.  Position your rib on the barrel in its desired location and clamp.
4.  Measure from the bottom of the rib concavity to the center of the barrel wall.  This will be your drilling depth.  Either set your drill press to this depth or mark the depth on your drill bit with magic marker.
5.  Drill and tap your holes with a plug tap, both your rib and the hole.  Slightly countersink the rib.
6.  Remove the rib and bottom tap the barrel holes.
7.  Screw the nails into the rib just enough to use them to locate the barrel holes.
8.  Smear a light coating of JB Weld, dyed black, onto the rib.
9.  Relocate the rib back on the barrel and clamp it in place.  Then screw the nails in until they bottom and snug them up.  Allow to dry for 24 hours.
10.  Cut the nails off and peen them into the countersinks.  File smooth.  Properly done they will be invisible.  Excess JB can be peeled off with a wood chisel and sanded.  It will also stand temps up to 500 degrees, so you can adjust your thimble soldering if required.  Because you have soldered your thimbles on, everyone will assume that you also did a helluva job of soldering the rib on too.

[Dphariss]

Use a bigger barrel. A 15/16 will make a funny looking Hawken. Besides the good breeches are all for 1" SFAIK.
I suspect the original PG guns have 1 1/8" breeches.

Dan

[roundball]

But is a 15/16" .54 going to allow for a well screwed on rib?

GM themselves make .54cal drop-in barrels for the T/C Hawken with screw-on underbarrel ribs...and they are 32" x 15/16" barrels...have a couple of them

[rsells]

I have a neat barrel that a customer gave me to make a Hawken for him.  It was made and breeched by the Rice folks.  It is a .54 cal 36 inch long tapering from 1 inch at the breech to 7/8 inch at the muzzle.  Getz, Ed Rayl, Mike De Haas, or Rice can make a tapered barrel for you.  I am sure you will find a range of delivery times due to their work loads.  I am a Hawken lover, and would also recommend you use a 1 inch or 1 1/8 inch barrel at the breech.  I have been cutting my barrels back to 34 inches in length for the half stocked rifles I build.  Good luck with your project.
                                                                      Roger Sells

[A.Merrill]

    The book, Hawken Rifles the Mountian Man's Choice, shows a pistol grip Hawken rifle from the J. E. Serven collection. I think you have made a good choice. Something different and still PC. Don't forget the pic's.    Good Luck,    AL

[BrentD]

Al,
I am chasing that same rifle - or at least something inspired from it.  It is now owned by Jim Gordon.  I cannot believe that gunmakers and parts makers don't have that on their list.  I think it is, by far, the most attractive Hawken of all.  It is a heavy rifle to be sure, so I am going to lighten mine down - a lot.  I did some number crunching to figure out the differences in barrel weight.  It matters a lot.  A 1.125" barrel is almost as heavy as the entire gun I want to build.  I see no reason to make a 12 lb rifle.  Or even a 10 lb rifle.  I have many of those and they are fine, but they are not what I need or want.  It won't look terribly odd if everything is scaled accordingly.  And I am not really a replicator person.  I like to get ideas and then morph them to my own desires.  It only has to make me happy in the end. 

Brent
 

[BrentD]

This is the rifle with which I am infatuated.  There are other pictures of it in various books as well.  I think there are 1-2 other original Hawkens that are pistol grips like this but I don't know for sure.







[/quote]

[heinz]

Nice gun.  I doubt it will look the same with a 15/16 barrel.  If you are going to go to that much work why not consider purchasing a short tapered barrel starting at 1  1/16 at the breech and tapering to 15/16 and making it short enough for your weight requirements? 
If you draw out a full size profile of the Hawken pictured and then draw it with the barrel reduced to 15/16 you will have some idea of how you like the change in looks. 
My personal opinion is Hawkens don't start to be fun until they have at least 120 grains of powder in them :-)
It is your gun, go with what you like!

[BrentD]

Well, I don't like short barrels for one thing.  That would look really odd  Balance will be bad as well.  I calculated the weights for a 15/16" straight barrel and a 1 to 15/16" tapered barrel and the taper adds 1/2 lb making a 5.6# 36" barrel.  I might still go that route, but I can't see going any heavier. 

I shoot between 112 and 125 grs in my .54 flinter.  And that's fine.  I will probably about the same with this rifle.  but hunting rifles are carried more than they are shot.  Why carry a boat anchor?  Most guys I know with 12# Hawkens leave them at home durring hunting season or only crawl a short distance from truck to stand.  That ain't my style.

Remember the TC Seneca?  Not that it was a real Hawken, but it was a light rifle that did not look bad at all.  I don't know the barrel dimensions, but it was a nice light rifle, probably a bit smaller than what I'll end up making.

Brent

[keweenaw]

My major concern on your build is not the appearance, you can scale the rifle to work with whatever barrel you want as what you are describing isn't a Hawken but rather a half stocked sporting rifle, rather it's with the available patent breeches.  These things aren't adaptable to different size barrels and availability is quite limited, basically L&R's 15/16" Hawken breech.  As for balance, I got tired years ago of carrying  muzzle heavy, straight barreled rifles where the balance point is invariably where the rear sight sits and greatly prefer a rifle with a tapered barrel even if it's a few ounces heavier.

Tom

[BrentD]

I'm all for tapered barrels.  Just don't happen to have a coupon for $100 for a maker that does one.   Why doesn't Green Mountain do tapered barrels.  Might cut a swamped barrel that could work. 

There are other breech assemblies that will work - stealing parts from pistol breech set ups for instance. 

Are Hawkens defined as 1.125"?  I didn't realize that.

[heinz]

Brent, I hope that I did not imply to you that all Hawkens were 1.125.   Many are bigger, some are smaller.  I have always used 1 inch or larger breeches in 54 calibers.  But I was also raised on Douglas barrels and at that time they did not make a 54 in less than one inch.  I would expect that the 15/16 GM would handle the load. 
I apologize for not seeing your post prior to the pictures mentioning scaling the entire affair down.  That would handle the looks issue.  I will look in Baird's Hawken books and see if there are any other photos of pistol gripped Hawkens.  If I find a good one I can scan it.
I rendezvoused and hunted with a 34 inch barreled full stock flint Hawken for 25 years.  Shot well but it had some weight to it.  My oldest son stole it so I am reduced to using a 40 cal, that probably weighs more than the Hawken, has a 42 inch 7/8 GM barrel.

[P.W.Berkuta]

I built this a while ago; .54 cal, 15/16" X 34" GM barrel, maple stained with AF, 1" or 1-1/16 breach plug filed to fit the barrel and an adjustable rear home made sight and yes it has two SS Phillips screws to adjust the rear sight blade but it's mine so who cares. It weighs 9-1/4 pounds and I would not want to lug it over hill or dale all day.

[BrentD]

That is a VERY nice rifle, and I can't believe it weighs that much! 

Thanks,
Brent

[roundball]

Remember the TC Seneca?  Not that it was a real Hawken, but it was a light rifle that did not look bad at all.  I don't know the barrel dimensions, but it was a nice light rifle, probably a bit smaller than what I'll end up making.

Cherokees and Senecas had 13/16" barrels...
Cherokees were 24"
Senecas were 27"

[A.Merrill]

    BrentD, in my book it shows that same black spot in front of the lock bolt, what is it? Is that a place on the tang for a tang sight? In the back of DGW catalog there use to be a chart for barrel weight pre inch, if that would help. Build what YOU need.       Good Luck    AL