ML shop

[long carabine]

 I have a chance to have a old gun shop in Edinboro, Pa pretty cheap and was looking for opinions on opening a ML shop. Would any of the builders here be interested in selling their rifles in my store if I do this venture? There is a big back half to this store and it could be used for building or repairs. This would be black powder only and anything associated with black powder and the sport.  . It is a good opportunity seeing as the sport in Pa is growing by leaps and bounds and the closest place is TLC Shop in Ohio. I'm not trying to be like TLC Shop, just want to do my own thing and not work "For the man" anymore. Please give me some input and advice. Thank you, Tim

[Longshot]

Ohio? 
Check your competition between Meadville and Erie. 
Also, Fish & Game Com. may have data on ML hunting activity in the region.  Consumables might be your bread and butter, until or unless 'reputation' kicks in.

[don getz]

Carabine.......are you retired from previous employment?   I think you had best look long and hard at the business if you
think it is going to make a living for you.  I have known quite a few people that have gone this way and they remained
in business until their savings ran out.....extremely tough way to make a living.....Don

[Tommy Bruce]

I wish you well.  Edinboro would be a bit of a drive for me but could be done in a day.  I was just up at the Log Cabin shop and somewhat dissapointed that they didn't have a 44" b wieght barrel in .45 cal, no tow worm to fit my brown bess cleaning rod or to use for my ramrod bass on my smoothrifle.  It's a two 1/2 hour drive from my house.  Also to the south is Cains Outdoors or Muzzleloading (can't remember) which used to be Mountain state muzzleloading.   When I called them last year about a swamped colrain barrel I was told that colrain barrel company was out of business.  My point is that I would rather deal locally if I could but end up spending my money with folks like Troy Roop at Stonewall Creek  Outfitters, Track of the Wolfe and Jim Chambers all of which have given excellent service. 
I'm sure Don has some good points, He'd know about the ins and outs of the business.  I can just offer a customer's prospective.

[don getz]

When I was talking about the starting a muzzleloading gun shop, I was not comparing that to the barrel business which
I operated.   We produced a product for sale, never caught up with the demand.  But to open just a general muzzleloading gun shop, or store, you are basically purchasing items at wholesale and selling at retail.  You have to say
to yourself, how much must I sell each day to clear $100, which equals about $500 a week, $25,000 a year?  You will
need a lot of walk-in trade to do that......I really seriously doubt that you will do that........Don

[rich pierce]

I think it's especialy challenging now that it is so easy to contact suppliers online and order things quickly directly- count in the cost of gas, sales tax, etc.  If you were doing some other money-making activity at the same time (building guns, etc), it might work.  When business is slow, you'd make more headway. etc.

The bigger variety of available components probably makes it harder now.  You might have 30 barrels in stock, but a customer might want a B weight, etc, 44" long, not 42, etc.  Once upon a time you'd carry some Douglas barrels and that would be it.  Used to be you could carry Silers large, small, flint and percussion, and maybe 60% of the customers would be happy with that selection; another 25% wanting a Hawken lock.  Now there are at least 20 good locks out there.  Which should a small shop carry?

I would think you'd need $25K in inventory to get started.

Just some ideas.  The idea that it might become an consignment shop is interesting.  When I lived in NJ, there was a small ML shop in Neshanic- old Charlie Stone.  I heard he has a small shop in PA now.  Potbellied stove, doo-dads and gee-gaws of all kinds, some basic stuff.  I sold 2 or 3 rifles, a couple horns, knives, etc. there on consignment before Dixon's opened up their first shop.  Then the wider inventory and knowledge and Chuck's wonderful encouraging ways made it worthwhile to drive an hour and a half or two hours to go there at least once a month.

[westbj2]

Tim,
I recently retired after 31 years of operating Muzzleloaders Etcetera in suburban Minneapolis.  A few thoughts.
Rich has hit the nail on the head in his post above in terms of today's market.  You will need an additional niche or two.  Because of the nearly 2 million folks living in the metro area I always had custom work and a line-up of repairs waiting.  That income helped as a bridge.  You also need to rethink your premise of muzzle loaders exclusively.  If one of your customers came to your shop with a Sharps rifle or a vintage Purdey hammer gun or for that matter a pre-war model 70 would you tell him or her that you are not interested?  I found that most old and regular customers had no problem with later antique and collectible guns and they paid a lot of bills.  Just stay away from modern junk.  Quality always sells.

After 9-11, the cost of insurance to have Black Powder in a retail setting went up about 500%.  You could not sell enough powder to begin paying for the insurance.
This co-coincided with the onslaught of the in-line stuff for the new customers and strictly hunting crowd while the product was dominated by the Big Boxes.  I never was interested in them and didn't stock them.  I found that without powder and an interest in the inlines sales suffered.  This forced me to start dealing only with antique and collectible guns,  something that I should have started much earlier in conjunction with the traditional ML stuff.

Also, you may well become a prisoner of your passion.   For many years I felt a duty to my customers to have the shop open when for what ever reason I was out of town.  Luckily I had a few fairly knowledgeable retired guys to help there.
Once I came in after being out of town and was chatting with the fellow who was looking after the store.  "How did it go", I asked.  "Pretty well (sales were good) but kind of boring" was the reply.  "Why?" I asked.  He replied, "A lot of people come in the door a step or two and see that you are not here, they turn around and leave saying that they will come back when Jim is in".  Hearing that, I just closed the shop and put up a sign on the door from then on.  I am not sure that it is possible to find an employee in a niche business that can and will do the stuff that you as the owner take for granted.  I always jokingly told the customers that the bars on the windows keep the bad guys out and me in.

Looking back at it all,  it was rewarding and interesting I am glad that I did it, and thank my wife for her enduring support.

Jim Westberg

[don getz]

Jim.....good comments.   The main thing you had going for you was your expertise.  I've seen your work and I know why
they came.   I used to get the comment, "why don't you hire a secretary?"    I could have but no one would have wanted
to talk to her anyway....when the called they wanted to talk to someone who knew something about barrels.  I also put
in about 50 hour weeks, the guys that worked for me worked 4 - 10 hour days, then John and I would come in on friday
and do all the packing, billing, shipping, dovetail cutting, and other special jobs.  I refused to work week ends, had to get
away and do other things, although many times I would end up going to a shoot anyway.   On a slightly different note,
when Friendship rolled around, Fred Miller and I used to travel together.  We would leave on a friday, get out to friendship that afternoon, and would stay thru saturday of the following week.....almost nine days and I did business every day.....a far cry from what it is today.............Don

[northmn]

I worked as a grad assistant for a Small Business Development Center.  Most of what I am hearing from Don and Westbj2 sounds pretty much as to what I expected.  Hobbies can be turned into businesses and are often successful.  They are then no longer hobbies but work.  Also figure in addition to what Don stated on income needs the needs for "benefits" as a job gives you.  Social Security doubles for and businessman as he has to pay it all while a worker pays half, health insurance is another.  An SBDC could help you put toghether a business plan that goes toward any financing needed.  How is your accounting skills, you need them (No you don not have to be a CPA but you need to be able to track expenses, overhead and income and know the difference bewteen tax breaks and expenses)  Don's comment is also typical to the saying that you work 8 hours a day so that you can buy a business and work 12-16 hrs.  I have seen quite a few gunshops, both modern and BP that were either supported by another income or had to expand.  A friend wanted to sell traditional bows.  He used internet sales, but found that the modern compound gig was more profitable and supported his traditional desires.  A total gunshop would likely have a better chance of "making wages" than just a traditional store.  It also brings in customers for cross sales, ie a modern shooter that might bite on a ML.  Just a few thoughts. 

DP   

[don getz]

DP.....you just reminded me of the other end of the business that I had to maintain.  In addition to making barrels, which
kept me busy every day, I had to find time to do all the bookwork.  Pay the bills, and in my check book there was a spread
sheet where I would allocate this check into an account....this allowed me to show where I spent my money at the end of
the year.   I also had to post all of my transactions.......Invoices that were charged to an individual, and an invoice when
it was paid....you had to keep these records up to date, just to determine who the dead beats were.....had them all the
time.   As a matter of fact, even 11 years since I retired, I can remember a few names of guys that screwed me....I guess
that's just part of being in business.   Oh yes, then, at the end of each quarter, you had to a 941...federal tax return on
employee wages, and had to make sure they were deposited properly....then had the same return for state witholding
tax, and local withholding tax, and state unemployment compensation taxes........these things only apply if you have employes, and they are a real pain the butt.  I personally did all of this, but, at the end of the year I would turn it all over
to my accountant who did my tax return..........there were many times I wondered what I was doing here............Don

[Tom Cooper]

taxes,

The rotten truth of it all is, the govt. does not want you in business unless you employ 50 or more people, any less and you are a drain on the big dogs and they try and tax you out of business. Oh yeah do not get behind at all on business taxes, ther is no catching up...

[KentSmith]

I am not sure I would start any small buiness right now.   

[northmn]

When working for the SBDC we found we had to council quite a bit in simple accounting.  Also the successful business people look at their business as just that, a business.  It really does not matter as much as some think as to whether you are selling hardware, cars, women's clothing or ML supplies, it is the business thinking that makes for success and enjoyment.  The people that make it enjoy the challenge of business.  Its like those going into teaching.  You may get a major in math, social studies, English or whatever, but the job and challenges of teaching are very similar regardless of what is taught.  I had to train in two liquor store managers when I worked for cities (MN permits cities of a smaller size to operate and run liquor stores for control and to offset taxes) into that form of thinking.  A wine connoisseur may not be much of a manager in a beer oriented community.
Another point.  What defines success is personal.  In my neck of the woods many of the local women are running junk shops (you know, knickknacks, gifts antiques)because they do not want to waitress or be a secretary.  Some are not making wages but are enjoying themselves.  I had a mayor tell me this because his wife ran one of the shops. 

DP

[long carabine]

I understand and will take this all into consideration. Don, I am familiar with the hours and money that it takes and this is going to be more of a hobby then a money makind venture. I was hoping that a few ML builders would put there rifles in the shop for me to sell for them. The building used to be a very well known gun shop and the owner made his money and is living the good life fishing and hunting. he will rent the building out to me for a song..... I also have a day job so the shop will only be open nights and weekends. Tim

[P.W.Berkuta]

Rich I also shopped at Abe Lincon's  (AKA Charlie Stone) train station depot from about 1975(?) till he sold out and moved to PA - heard he had some trouble and had to "get out of Dodge".  I remember walking around and asked Old Charlie for some drawings on how to make a flintlock lock from scratch. He said he did not have anything like that and as I walked away some guy took pencil and a 3" X 5" post card and drew up a complete lock to size with all the internal parts just where they were supost to be - I still can't forget it. He sure did have a lot of different stuff and a mighty fine pot belly stove that sure did put out some heat! Thanks for the memory 

I think it's especialy challenging now that it is so easy to contact suppliers online and order things quickly directly- count in the cost of gas, sales tax, etc.  If you were doing some other money-making activity at the same time (building guns, etc), it might work.  When business is slow, you'd make more headway. etc.

The bigger variety of available components probably makes it harder now.  You might have 30 barrels in stock, but a customer might want a B weight, etc, 44" long, not 42, etc.  Once upon a time you'd carry some Douglas barrels and that would be it.  Used to be you could carry Silers large, small, flint and percussion, and maybe 60% of the customers would be happy with that selection; another 25% wanting a Hawken lock.  Now there are at least 20 good locks out there.  Which should a small shop carry?

I would think you'd need $25K in inventory to get started.

Just some ideas.  The idea that it might become an consignment shop is interesting.  When I lived in NJ, there was a small ML shop in Neshanic- old Charlie Stone.  I heard he has a small shop in PA now.  Potbellied stove, doo-dads and gee-gaws of all kinds, some basic stuff.  I sold 2 or 3 rifles, a couple horns, knives, etc. there on consignment before Dixon's opened up their first shop.  Then the wider inventory and knowledge and Chuck's wonderful encouraging ways made it worthwhile to drive an hour and a half or two hours to go there at least once a month.

[rich pierce]

Mr. Berkuta, we probably ran into each other at Charlie's back in the day.

I think that a shop specializing in high quality consignments could do well.  It would take time to develop a good stock of high quality work and a website where these guns would be available would probably make a big difference.  That takes serious photography skills like "Track" uses- they put together a nice writeup and photo spread for each gun.  Depending on foot traffic anymore for sales is a tough row to hoe- many makers have found that showing at even top notch events like Friendship, etc doesn't always pay the bills.  With rising gas prices, maybe you are limited to customers within 100 miles at best if you hope folks will stop by to see what consignment custom guns you have in stock.  Postage and handling would probably not exceed travel expenses for many potential buyers.

I know Dixon's does well with consignments as they do get a lot of traffic, being well established.  I sold 2 guns there back in the 1980's- and one of them sold there again recently. The consignment approach is a good one for makers who just make what they want to make and are nolt well known.  Folks can see and handle the work and this can sell guns.

[don getz]

Carbine.....sound great.  I'm glad you have another source of income.  You will soon find that being there EVERY evening
and week-end will get old.  Your wife will start to bitch, etc.   I do remember when I was making barrels, after working
50 hour weeks in the shop, I was ready for friday evening to roll around when I could walk out of there and didn't have
to return until monday.  I don't care what you do for a living, you must get away from it and do other things in order to
keep your sanity............Don

[Longshot]

Rich I also shopped at Abe Lincon's  (AKA Charlie Stone) train station depot from about 1975(?) till he sold out and moved to PA - heard he had some trouble and had to "get out of Dodge". 

.
Ahhhh........echoes of the "Neshanic Vigilant Society".  Was'nt only that potbelly stove that was generating heat.

[Roger Fisher]

Carbine.....sound great.  I'm glad you have another source of income.  You will soon find that being there EVERY evening
and week-end will get old.  Your wife will start to bitch, etc.   I do remember when I was making barrels, after working
50 hour weeks in the shop, I was ready for friday evening to roll around when I could walk out of there and didn't have
to return until monday.  I don't care what you do for a living, you must get away from it and do other things in order to
keep your sanity............Don

"Gotta get away to keep your sanity"!!   Now I know what happened to me