What Stops the Hammer (Cock) Movement when Firing a FL?

[smshea]

Its so refreshing to talk to people with common interests!!!! I wish you lived next door Bill!

[Acer Saccharum]

Bill, I can tell when you are sloshing about the keyboard.

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

Bill, your Manton is beautiful. This is a Joseph Manton right? Does'nt the tumbler come to rest internally on the bridle stop? This is one lock I have not had the opportunity to examine. My flintlocks are very early John (the elder brother) Mantons from a double gun in private collection which was destroyed. (Wish I had all the pieces and parts).
Susie

[J.D.]

Thanks for all that appreciation stuff! Since I'm new here to the forum, its kind of cool to be noticed! My monthly weekend school here covers all this kind of stuff in a hands-on "real" school! As soon as someone teaches me how to upload photos I'll be glad to share pics on my Mantons. My ultimate goal is to reproduce them (and some others). Anything I can help with, just let me know!
Susie

Anyone who has an interest in these old guns is welcome, but someone who illustrates your knowledge and dedication to the hobby is especially welcome. And while I'm waaaayyy too far away to attend your monthly weekend school, I certainly would like to see photos of those Manton locks.

Too bad no one produces a good affordable Manton. Hint, hint. 

Thanks,

J.D.

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

Hah! Thats good to know! And thanks! I have been getting alot of interest in my developing my early Manton locks as well as a left and right set of Nock locks from an original side-by-side flint shotgun I want to copy. Seems to be a lot of interest in these smaller locks too. The Mantons I have are in spectacular condition. I'll put them up on the site here when I get educated about this modern computer stuff. Those Joseph Manton locks (I'm pretty sure the one shown above is Joe) are interesting, but I can't believe they fall to rest on the fence. I suppose its possible, but from what I have read about these brothers, its hard to believe they would allow anything to mar their workmanship like a hammer strike would. My John Mantons have gold lined pans and soled frizzens. Beautiful locks.
Susie

[Acer Saccharum]

I can't believe they fall to rest on the fence. I suppose its possible, but from what I have read about these brothers, its hard to believe they would allow anything to mar their workmanship like a hammer strike would.
Susie

Take a good look at the first photo of Dan's lock. There is barely a mark on the underside of the hammer. The fence shows no mushrooming in the views we have. This is after 400 to 500 shots.

Dan, what I want to know is this: is the lock case hardened? If it is hardened,that could certainly make a difference in the durability of the hammer and fence contact points. I am going to guess that it would depend on how deep the case is. If the case was deep, and the lock hardened and tempered, I would think that you could fire ten thousand rounds without much marring at all. If it is a thin case, then it would not help prevent impact damage very much.

[Rich Jakowski]

Perhaps Dan could send another picture showing the cock at rest on the pan fence in full forward position.

Hey Susanne - when do you think you might start production of those Manton locks? Are you planning to offer these as assembled locks or casting sets? I for one would be very interested, especially in casting sets. Sounds like a big undertaking. I don't know much about the high definition cast steel process, but have an impression it requires lots of very specialized (read: very expensive) equipment.

[Dphariss]

I can't believe they fall to rest on the fence. I suppose its possible, but from what I have read about these brothers, its hard to believe they would allow anything to mar their workmanship like a hammer strike would.
Susie

Take a good look at the first photo of Dan's lock. There is barely a mark on the underside of the hammer. The fence shows no mushrooming in the views we have. This is after 400 to 500 shots.

Dan, what I want to know is this: is the lock case hardened? If it is hardened,that could certainly make a difference in the durability of the hammer and fence contact points. I am going to guess that it would depend on how deep the case is. If the case was deep, and the lock hardened and tempered, I would think that you could fire ten thousand rounds without much marring at all. If it is a thin case, then it would not help prevent impact damage very much.

Lockplate is not hardened except just at the tumbler hole. TRS states they are 4140 and it WILL through harden if heated too hot. Thus I Kasenited the tumbler hole only at low red heat.
The cock is as cast, again its 4140 don't need to break it. Its MADE as shown in previous posts or at least the casting came that way. IIRC there was a slight dipple in the fence as cast but I cleaned it up. Had I known people were going into this at this level of detail I would have take pics then. The original used as a pattern was used since it has corrosion cast in. I made a tumbler for this lock and carefully fitted things so neither the fence or the bridle does all the stopping. The fence does not take a lot of the load but it will *just about* shear through a piece of writing paper placed on the fence if the cock is pulled back short of 1/2 cock and dropped. I think I fitted it with "magic marker dykem and it will remove the color so there is contact. The fence has a mark where the cock rests but nothing more. The tumbler and bridle are mild steel case hardened.
If those interested will go to the site detailing assembly of a Manton V -pan lock you will see there is a slight dent in the fence from stopping the cock. It is noticeable in several pictures. The dimple on my lock was not that wide.
This is a set of castings from TRS as well.
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/mantonlock/mantonlock.html



Another thing to remember is that Manton probably BOUGHT their locks from lock filers. I doubt that they were made in house though it is possible.

Dan

[Canyonrun]

For those like myself that couldn't see the contact between the cock and fence I lighten up the picture, nice lock.

[Dphariss]

Hah! Thats good to know! And thanks! I have been getting alot of interest in my developing my early Manton locks as well as a left and right set of Nock locks from an original side-by-side flint shotgun I want to copy. Seems to be a lot of interest in these smaller locks too. The Mantons I have are in spectacular condition. I'll put them up on the site here when I get educated about this modern computer stuff. Those Joseph Manton locks (I'm pretty sure the one shown above is Joe) are interesting, but I can't believe they fall to rest on the fence. I suppose its possible, but from what I have read about these brothers, its hard to believe they would allow anything to mar their workmanship like a hammer strike would. My John Mantons have gold lined pans and soled frizzens. Beautiful locks.
Susie

Hi Susie
One of my primary gripes is the lack of really good, easily available castings for locks like the Mantons and other high grade English locks. Some of the later type locks on the market now are near misses. I get the feeling they are selected for reproduction by people who do not make rifles or have no eye for aesthetic, elegant locks.
If you do cast them have them cast in something like 8620, the cocks and plates at least, this way they can be case hardened with less fear than if made of 4140 or other high carbon steel.
TRS has some wonderful designs, but trying to contact them is often like shouting down a well. Took well over a year to get all the parts for the lock pictured in a previous post. Then I ended up making a mainspring and tumbler because the castings were bad. Had to weld a up a large hole at a gate on the plate. But I LOVE the lock.
We really need a 1810-1820s type import flintlock that looks like this lock as well. Both in 5"- 5 1/4" and another about 4 1/2".


Not everyone is making 1750-1780 American rifles exclusively and there is a glut of locks for this purpose on the market right now.
I hope you can get your Mantons reproduced.
Sorry for the rant.
Dan

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

Wow... we really started something didn't we! Here is some stuff you probably didn't know (and I'm almost hesitant to share cause some will roll their eyes at me for lettin cats out of the bag) but here goes:  Original locks were always hardened because of the steel (which was not steel-it was iron) and dead soft and as easy to work as soft brass! I know cause I got to work with some real original pieces that were "in process" rejects. Part of my research. ANyway, in the event you ever got to "tink" an original lock plate, you can hear the difference from a heat treated plate today. They don't sound the same and you will never get there. They used salt water to do their heat treat! But the iron is the key to the difference. The color you get is unique as well; not what you get now when you heat treat todays steel. Now.... I actually heat treat my lock plates because I know what is used in mine. 8620 is wonderful for the plate because it is tough, durable and will take the deep heat treat. And it works exceptionally well. I did a lot of re-work and re-architecture on my large Siler in my Beck rifle I compete with, and right now its on its 147th strike on the same flint (does include one time lightly knapped edge). The lock plate is slippery to the tumblers bearing surface and I relieved all parts so none drag on any part of the plates surface except where bearing. Combined with the change to the hammers neck architecture as it engages the frizzen, my ignition is almost instant. Its going off before the hammer is at rest. But the heat treated polished plate is wonderful and cleans up so well. I did the pan too and it really cleans up easy. For the record, the plate inside and out is highly mirror polished prior to the heat treat.
As for the Mantons and other locks I have planned, it takes tremendous time to do them. And Jims estimate on $15K per lock is pretty close! But I have no intention of putting them out there until the lock performs as good as the original. That guarantees having to tweek the masters and re-make the molds a time or two or three. All this is why I put the shop up for sale so I can get the needed time to do these. I'm putting the time in on learning what makes these babies tick. Now I just need the time to do them. Oh yeah, and the 4140 won't work good. Not enough carbon to even get you started. You would have to carbonize it. Whether by Kasenite or the old way with bone meal over fire.By the way, I just hired a new guy in the shop to help us work faster, so maybe I can get onto my projects faster. Say prayers! I need them! And remember all us vendors. We are struggling with this economic thing right now. Every little order adds up and would help us through it. God bless!
Susie

[J.D.]

4140 steel is a chrome-molly steel, with .4% of carbon. That .4% carbon content will allow the steel to harden somewhat. Not much, but somewhat. The Chrome content combined with the mild carbon content will allow this alloy to harden more, and more deeply than, say, 1040 plain carbon steel.

I recently bought some raw cast parts from Jerry DeVaudril that were made of 4140 steel. Jerry referred me to Bob Roller for heat treating advice.

MR. Roller hardens frizzens cast of 4140 steel  by quenching in 5w-30 oil, but does not temper the face of the frizzens.

Roller locks are well known for their quality, so he must know what he is doing.

8620, on the other hand, is a great steel for case hardening, but has a reputation for warpage. Either steel could be used for lockplates, with the 4140 being more durable, but 8620 being easier to work with when it comes to machining and color case hardening.

Just kinda thinkn'....typin' out loud, so to speak...type.
J.D.

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

Perhaps Dan could send another picture showing the cock at rest on the pan fence in full forward position.

Hey Susanne - when do you think you might start production of those Manton locks? Are you planning to offer these as assembled locks or casting sets? I for one would be very interested, especially in casting sets. Sounds like a big undertaking. I don't know much about the high definition cast steel process, but have an impression it requires lots of very specialized (read: very expensive) equipment.

Yup! It requires bookoos patience and lots of mold work. I have to make masters of the original parts so that control of shrink rates can be maintained. Lots of outfits copy original locks but fail to address the shrink rates and just leave the problems to the unsuspecting builder. I have already begun the work, but I have no idea how long its going to take. I want them to be right! They will be fully assembled and as good as I can make them! I'll just have to look at them being made available as kits. I don't know if I want to do that or not. Jim calls that quality control! And I think he is right on that.

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

I wasn't real sure on the 4140 and will have to agree on carbon content because of the "40" in the description. It may well be I didn't do something right, but I can tell you this, the 8620 has caused me no warp problem so far. Its tough and the warp you speak of probably came from a series of problems like the thickness of the metal and the entry into the oil, type of oil used and temperature of the oil to control cooling shock. I take a lot of pains to heat treat right so thats why I probably have few problems with the 8620. May have lucked out and hit it right. Temperatures on all aspects can change the whole results in any metal. I'll have to check with Jim on his steel in the plates to see what it is. I could actually have it backwards.
Susie

[Jim Chambers]

Susie, you are correct.  We do use 8620 for plates, pans, and cocks/hammers.  Bud Siler used 4140 when he was making those parts, but he allowed his foundry to use a variety of metals as long as it was close to 4140.  When I bought the company and switched from the old foundry Bud has always used to the one I was then using, my foundry prefered to use 8620 for those parts, and, because 8620 will case harden better than 4140, I agreed that 8620 was a better choice.

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

Yup! Thats just what I thought. The 4140 is still hardenable, but the large Siler I built up and modifed (quite a lot) is completely hardened and it is one lightening fast slick lock for a Germanic style. I just won our latest Arkansas 8 month long Aggregate with it on my Beck rifle this last weekend. This lock now has two championships on it. Did something right, cause I am on my 147th shot on the same flint with one light knapping on the 142nd. And yes, I'm keeping count on this lock because of changing the architecture of the hammer, frizzen arc and internals. Anyway, it works and hardening all the parts was icing on the cake. Makes for wonderful clean-up too!
Susie

[Dphariss]

4140
"Heat Treatment

This alloy is hardened by heating to 1550 F and quenching in oil. It is best to normalize the alloy by heating at 1675 F for a long enough time to permit thorough heating, followed by air cooling, prior to the hardening treatment."

You will find this or similar information on 4140 by a simple Google search.
4140 can be case hardened by a water quench and left with a soft core.
But its not something that can be done reliably in a shop with a torch.
For case hardened parts it is better to use steel that is more suitable. 1018 will make good tumblers and sears if properly case hardened. In fact I would PREFER 1018 though high carbon steel hardened and tempered will work OK and might be better for selling to the general public.

Dan