Vinegar Dye

[BrownBear]

Interesting thoughts on the oil.  I do know that all cracking issues from vinegaroon stopped once I gave the leather a good rubbing with TOW mink oil tallow.  One of my bags is light (2-3 oz) and showed immediate signs of cracking after dying. But a year of very hard use after the mink oil treatment hasn't produced another crack or flake.

[david50]

has anyone had trouble with the leather actually rusting. have been meaning to try vinegar dye on a couple of knife sheathes but was worried about it perhaps rusting the blades,i guess a good nutrealizing should prevent this?

[Gun Butcher]

 Here is one I made today using the vinegar and steel wool. Being an impatient sort I burned the wool and only let it soak in the vinegar for about 2 hours and this is the black that I got out of it.
Thanks to Wick Ellerbe for the how to on the center seam and Lonehunter for the knife
Ron

[Mad Monk]

has anyone had trouble with the leather actually rusting. have been meaning to try vinegar dye on a couple of knife sheathes but was worried about it perhaps rusting the blades,i guess a good nutrealizing should prevent this?

The vinegar dye will do little or nothing as far as rusting knife blades.  You would have to use something like a large jar or crock.  Then vinegar in the bottom and hang the knife about the liquid level in the jar or crock.  The fumes containing acetic acid are more corrosive compared to placing the iron right into the liquid.

As to the leather actually rusting.
When you apply the vinegar iron dye to the leather you may have some water-insoluble iron in the dye besides iron in solution as ferric acetate.  Once on/into the leather the ferric acetate is not stable.  It begins to quickly change to the "stable" form of iron.  That being iron oxide.  The acetic acid then slowly migrates out of the leather as a vapor.  The smell of vinegar.

Now if by chance you use the vinegar/iron stain on vegetable tanned leather that was tanned with bark or tannic acid there is a conversion to what is known as an iron tannate complex.  this is iron oxide with tannic acid and is black in color.

Basically. In this iron/vinegar stain you are forming "rust", or iron oxide, in and on the leather as a coloring matter.

E. Ogre

[T.C.Albert]

Mad Monk ....thanks very much for the great detailed explanation  about how the vinegar dyes work on veg-tan leather. I agree with your idea that its the actual leather and not the traditional dye that is causing problems...In my experience the inexpensive commercial sides marketed as economy or "craftsman" tanned tooling leather are usually the worst. Even undyed they feel very stiff and overly dry in hand. I had wondered if they were not bated properly or if perhaps they were to aggressively speed tanned...but not being stuffed explains it....you gotta figure that they cut alot of corners to routinely sell that grade of  leather so cheap...TCA
     

[Artificer]

Mad Monk and T.C. Albert, thank you for the information and that sort of begs the question on what, if anything, we can do to the cheaper types of veg tan leather to "stuff" them and improve them before we stain/dye them.

Most of us don't have vats or barrels to add oil to stuff them.  Should we apply a thin coat of oil to the leather and rub it well in and the surface oil off before we use the vinegar dye/stain?   If so, what kind of oil would be best to do that? 

Have to admit I never thought of adding oil to leather before dying, I always thought it would make it harder for the dye/stain to set.  However, if the leather did not have enough oil added before we get it, then it sounds like we should do that first?

Thank you for any additional information.
Gus

[Mad Monk]

Mad Monk and T.C. Albert, thank you for the information and that sort of begs the question on what, if anything, we can do to the cheaper types of veg tan leather to "stuff" them and improve them before we stain/dye them.

Most of us don't have vats or barrels to add oil to stuff them.  Should we apply a thin coat of oil to the leather and rub it well in and the surface oil off before we use the vinegar dye/stain?   If so, what kind of oil would be best to do that? 

Have to admit I never thought of adding oil to leather before dying, I always thought it would make it harder for the dye/stain to set.  However, if the leather did not have enough oil added before we get it, then it sounds like we should do that first?

Thank you for any additional information.
Gus

If you were to oil (stuff) the leather before you apply the vinegar/iron dye it simply would not take.  The oil would prevent the water-soluble portion of the dye from entering the surface of the leather and it would get blotchy.  So you would first dye the leather and let it dry.

In a tannery they, as a final step, would place the hides in a rotating barrel and then add the fish oil to the hides in the barrel.  As the hides tumbled it would give a more uniform "stuffing" of the hides.

I used to do it by hand with mink oil or one of the commercial leather "preservatives".  Simply rubbing it into the leather by hand and trying to get it in as evenly as possible.


To drift a bit here.
Normally we think of leather as either vegetable tanned or chrome tanned.  But there is another process in use.  Back in the early 1900's they started to use another process they called Synthatan.  This was a chemical related to creosote/creosol.
The basic concept in leather tanning is that you imprergnate the hide with an astringent as protection against bacterial activity that would destroy the leather.
Tanbarks used in the veggie process transfers tannic acid into the hide.  Tannic and gallic acids are described as phenolic structured chemicals.  The same with the creosote and creosols.  These are also phenolic structured chemicals.  But in the tanning process all of the oils that were in the living hide have been removed.  So to make the leather softer, more pliable and therefor more durable you must put back some sort of oil that would make the hide soft and pliable.  But the oil used must not support bacterial activity.  Meaning it cannot be a food for bacteria in the hide nor should it turn rancid.

E. Ogre

[Artificer]

Really appreciate that most informative and thorough explanation!!

So, am I assuming correctly that after one dyes the leather, then the leather should be "stuffed" a bit with something like Mink Oil? 

Gus

[T.C.Albert]

For what its worth, though it worked just fine, I have stopped using mink oil and started using Lexol Leather Conditioner and/or Dr. Jacksons Hide Rejuvenator...which by the way, are both available from Tandy...hee heee, good thing, cause ironically its their leather that I  had the worst trouble with in the past...in fact, I will only buy my tooling sides from Wickett and Craig now, though I would expect the higher grade Tandy stuff like the "Live Oak" tans to still be pretty good leathers too...and I still buy my rawhides and petite tooling calf skins from Tandy when I need them or they go on sale.
TC   

[Jefferson58]

To address a previous observation, I have oiled my veg. tan cowhide with olive oil prior to dying (using modern aniline dyes), and gotten very good results. I find that the dye coat is more even after the oiling, but the color shade will be a little different than it would without the oil.

Looking at different leather-working forums, I found that many saddlers use olive oil routinely. With the peculiar additives in modern neatsfoot oil (ie silicone, etc.) an alternative seemed in order. If you eat the stuff, it should be pretty pure.

I have also used the vinegar / iron dye after oiling with the olive oil, particularly on bark tan deer, and sometimes on pigskin. It still worked, even though I did not think it would. Usually I apply that dye first, and then oil just to be sure it will color properly, and evenly.

Just my experience so far......

Jeff

[James Rogers]

To address a previous observation, I have oiled my veg. tan cowhide with olive oil prior to dying (using modern aniline dyes), and gotten very good results. I find that the dye coat is more even after the oiling, but the color shade will be a little different than it would without the oil.

Looking at different leather-working forums, I found that many saddlers use olive oil routinely. With the peculiar additives in modern neatsfoot oil (ie silicone, etc.) an alternative seemed in order. If you eat the stuff, it should be pretty pure.

I have also used the vinegar / iron dye after oiling with the olive oil, particularly on bark tan deer, and sometimes on pigskin. It still worked, even though I did not think it would. Usually I apply that dye first, and then oil just to be sure it will color properly, and evenly.

Just my experience so far......

Jeff

I have had some similar results Jeff.

I also recently just found out (thru Chuck Burrows IIRC) that no one is making neatsfoot oil made from the "neat" anymore. Now lard is used in "pure" neatsfoot oil production. Just used up the last of my old stuff and had a new bottle of Fiebing's waiting in the wings.