Hunting Lube again

[M Tornichio]

Ok guys, I finally made it out and shot this past weekend. Here is the story, I have my squirrel/target rifle shooting a 1 hole group that is smaller than a quarter at 25 yards using hoppes #9 patch lube. the patch was approximately .018 I think, 40 grains of powder fff and .350 ball. The reason I say I think that the patch was that thick was because I ran out of it about a year ago. the original patching may have been .020. I shot this past weekend with a patch that was .015 thick. I used olive oil, and crisco and also hoppes #9 for lube.  I was not able to repeat the same size group with the hoppes #9. The last time I went out hunting I used olive oil trying to use a lube that would not rust in the bore. I tried hoppes last year and was able to kill about 5 squirrels, but 1 day I was hunting and did not shoot so I brought the rifle home and removed the ball and powder and found out that it was just starting to rust at the breech where the patch was, so I have been attempting to solve this problem. I few weeks ago I went hunting with out first testing the olive oil lube. I missed 4 consecutive shots at squirrels. This concerned me. So I test the 3 lubes out on saturday and found out that with my normal load the olive oil patches was giving me a 8 inch group at 25 yards. It was little wonder I could not hit a squirrel in the head.  I tried backing the powder down to 35 and 30 grains. I could get a smaller group, but I could not get anything smaller than 3 inches maybe a little bigger. I next tried the crisco. It shot tighter than the oil oil and gave the about the same group with 30 and 35 grains. The groups were larger with 25 grains though. I would say the smallest group was about 2 inches if that. It occured to me that the problem is the patching. I went to joann fabric store that night and purchase 11.5 ounce denim. I could not find the stuff that I had from before, but this seemed to be thicker than it. I don't have a micrometer, but I did have callipers.  I took it home and tried starting a ball at the muzzle and pulled it out. the patch did not cut anywhere. I cut up a bounch of small square patches and lubed in crisco. Went out the next morning and missed 4 more shots at squirrels. I know that I should have tried it out at the range, but I was mostly interested in hiking and scouting new areas for deer.
When shooting with hoppes, I never wiped between shots. I also never wiped between shots with the crisco. on my way back to the truck I found a empty snuff can and set it up on a dead stump. I walked about 20 yards away and shot off a secure rest. I missed the can completely. This is after missing 4 times earlier in the day. I wiped the bore, because it was nearly impossible to start the ball the previous attempt at loading. I tried shooting the can again and nailed it after wiping the bore before loading. I am thinking that I might need to wipe between shots? Maybe this will improve the group with crisco. Another possibility is to use a larger ball. I have never seen .355 balls though, does anyone make them? Do you guys have any other ideas that maybe I am not thinking about? Thanks for your help.
Marc

[bgf]

I hate to mention it, but is there any chance the bore rusted a bit between seasons?  You shouldn't have that much trouble loading with any of those lubes if you didn't before, and the rust that quick is a little worrisome.  You could scrub it out with the green scrub pads and/or some polishing compound if nothing else works; shouldn't do any harm.

[smylee grouch]

I dont know if anyone makes 355 balls but there are 355 moulds available.    Gary

[Daryl]

Hi Mark- Taylor and I have both found excellent accuracy with Dphar's favourite hunting lube - Neestfoot Oil. Taylor went through, probably close to 70 shots or more on Sunday and didn't have to wipe his bore, however he felt his accuracy was not as good as with a water-based lube as we commonly use for trail walks (target shooting) on Sundays. At 25 yards, he made a small black hole about 5/8" in diameter for four 4 shots on paper- offhand at 20yard, .50 cal. flinter (his cheatin' gun), yet the load did not hold accuracy to 100 yards.  He just wasn't shooting as well as normal - which is nasty-good.

I have tried vegetable oils my wife purchased, and they didn't shoot well and they also fouled badly.  Track's Mink OIl shoots well for me, is very slick and allows all day shooting in both my .32 and .40 with excellent accuracy that does not suffer at all.

As to accuracy was 25 yards, even a smoothbore with tight patch will shoot into an inch - mine does, as does Taylor's.  I'd test that .36 out at 35 to 40yards when trying to find a load for it, if it was mine, that is.  25 yards just doesn't seem to give much of an indication.  I test and developed my accuracy load with my .32 at 50 yards as well. At 25 yards, 20gr. will cut a very tiny hole for 5 shots - about .4", but at 50 yards, that powder charge shoots over 2".  Going up to 35gr. puts 5 shots at 50 yards into 1" with monotonous regularity, and still shoots that .4" hole for 5 shots at 25 yards.

It might shoot at 25 yards, but not at 50 yards. If it shoots accurately at 50 yards, it will shoot well at 25 and 75 as well.  I use the 35gr. charge for all ranges on our trail - including the targets from 90yards to 109 yards. Yes - the little .32 works just fine on the 100 yard bunny as well.

I assume you meant Hoppe's #9 Plus, not Hoppe's #9.  Without the 'plus' on it's label, it's a straight smokeless powder solvent.  You are using real BP,  aren't you?

When I was testing lubes back in the 70's, I found crisco shortening pressed into the patches to shoot OK, while the liquid Crisco Oil didn't shoot worth a hoot & neither did Olive Oil.  Neetsfoot Oil, Mink Oil (contains mink fat I'm sure), Bear's oil and grease, marmot Oil - These all worked for me for hunting lubes.

I hate to hear a guy had to wipe his bore more often than when he cleaned it after all the shooting was done. Your patch thicknesses sound good - especially the 11 1/2oz. denim.  I use 12oz in my .69, but 10 ounce in everything else, including the .32, with a .311" ball (narrow grooves).  I'm sure the .350" is just fine in about any .36.

[northmn]

Like Daryl mentioned, I used to use the Crisco grease not the oil.  For some reason, lately I have been reading of problems with patch lubes and accuracy extremes.  Crisco fouls worse than liquid lubes.  For squirrel hunting that could be a problem, for deer hunting?  Also I never really had the rust problem unless I did not thorughly get the bore dry after cleaning.  While most lubes are not real good rust preventatives, most will offer short term protection.  A gun once shot, generally will not store for any length of time with a load either.  We learned the hard way with percussion shotguns that if you let them set a night with a load placed in a dirty barrel that they will misfire unless a little 4f is placed under the nipple.  You do need to clean agfter a shot for longer term load storage.

DP

[M Tornichio]

I hate to mention it, but is there any chance the bore rusted a bit between seasons?  You shouldn't have that much trouble loading with any of those lubes if you didn't before, and the rust that quick is a little worrisome.  You could scrub it out with the green scrub pads and/or some polishing compound if nothing else works; shouldn't do any harm.

This is a good question. I have been shooting the rifle at shoots through out the year. I am pretty sure that the bore has not rusted. I clean as well as I can. The only rust was at the breech. I think I took a shot early in the morning and had the gun loaded until the evening. I did not shoot at the end of the day and took the gun home and took the breech out to see how it looke with a load lubed with Hoppes #9 plus. It had started to rust. I shot all day saturday and only wiped may be 2 between different strings with different lubes. Loaded really easy, so I think the patch was way too thin for the ball size.

[M Tornichio]

Daryl,
i am going to try the neetsfoot oil. I have a bottle and will test it out. The hoppes that I was using was the #9 plus for muzzleloaders. The crisco that I was using was a grease. I had to melt it to let the patches soak it up. I was thinking that maybe wiping between shots might be necessary with the crisco grease because I did wipe twice that day. Once after I switched from olive oil to crisco and another in between strings of crisco. On thing that occured to me this morning was that the first shot on each of those targets was almost dead center. Maybe 1/8" off. I would think, finally I have something that will work and the the next shots would be all over the place. That happended twice. I am going to definitely try shooting at 50 yards. I just want to be better at 25 yards before I move out to the longer range. The denim that I bought measured .025 to .028 with the calipers. I have found that the calipers give me a thicker measurement than micrometers, so I figured it would be ok since I was using a .350 ball. Probably around .020 to .022 thick? The other thing that I should have mentioned was that I was cutting the patches at the muzzle while on the range. While hunting with the new patches. I just cut them into roughly 1" square and lubed them up that way. I wanted a quicker reload. will test that out to see if a square patch that is not perfectly square shoots differently than the patches cut at the muzzle.
Thanks for everyones help.
I just wanted to see if I was missing somethings that I should test out.

[bgf]

Marc,
Didn't mean to impugn your cleaning -- thought it had been sitting since last spring or something when you said something about last year.  Even a good cleaning job, though, can occasionally rust fast under the wrong circumstances (high humidity, cool temps, too light on oil, etc.).  At this point, you probably scrubbed the bore with shooting, anyway.  

Incidentally, I've had good results (decent accuracy, no wiping) with whatever vegetable oil we have around (soybean usually), but it can be picky about how "wet" the patches are for good accuracy -- they need to be fairly dry (squeezed out), at least in my experience.  Also, I sometimes make square patches for the woods, and they work pretty well, just make sure they aren't too big and are well centered; if its ticking, always use the same side down and align the stripes the same way as well, just like when you are cutting at the muzzle.  My worthless input, take it for what its worth .

Anyway, sounds like you've got it working now.

PS. 1 inch sq patch may be too large for a .36 caliber -- you don't want it to wrap over top.  Take a round patch you've cut at the muzzle from the range and make a square closer to the same size.

[M Tornichio]

I had not thought of aligning the stripes. That is a new one for me. Thanks for the tip.

[hanshi]

The idea of aligning the stripes had never occurred to me, either; but, hey, I've learned a lot on this forum.  Crisco does indeed seem to "gum" up the works when used as patch lube; after one or two shots, seating a prb is next to impossible.  I use Hoppes as well and have found it to be at least as good as anything I've used in the past.  But when hunting I always use Crisco (or maybe a similar grease) for the first shot only.  This way if I don't fire the gun it will be safe to leave loaded till next time out.  ALL reloads after that first shot are lubed with Hoppes and never a rust problem.  I would certainly look elsewhere for the culprit.

[northmn]

The thing that gets me is the issue of the groups degrading that badly.  Most of what is recommended is what I call refinement.  You get pretty fair accuracy but refine to get that pinpoint accuracy we like.  Grease lubes do seem to gum up after a couple of shots.  I know I will get all kinds of rebuttals on this but lately I have found that Bore Butter does seem to work better than Crisco for continued shooting.  It does have the same problems in that it gets pretty stiff in colder weather, but once impregnated into the patches it works OK.  I do not believe it "seasons" the bore.  Another thing for my squirrel rifle.  GOEX really fouls hard with grease lubes.  Graf's 3f seems to have a softer fouling and so far I have been satisfied with Graf's powder in my 25.

DP

[Daryl]

The smaller the bore, the closer everything has to be in consistancy.  Same thing goes for mondern ctgs.  

Patches cut at the muzzle are closer to being square with angled corners than round.  We cut out pre-cuts round as that's how bearing races and arch punches are shaped for cutting patches more quickly.  It's quite handy to go to a shoot with LOTS of patches already cut, for each gun you take - just as it's handy not to have to cast balls while at a rendezvous.  Any 'extra' work takes away from 'visiting' time.  Clean the gun after a shoot (maybe) and get to visiting - that's rondy.

I prefer to use the mic for reading patch thickness.  Squeezing the tines together with calipers gives different readings from calipers to calipers. This is due to the different tine thicknesses of different makes.  I have 3 sets of calipers and each gives a .001" different measurement on cloth.  My mic gives a reading of .002" smaller than the lowest reading calilpers. The middle calipers are .003" 'out' and the widest jaws read .004" larger - all on material that mics .0215".  The thicker the material the greater the variation.  The material I use in the .69, mics. .025"-but .0275, .029" and .0315" with the calipers.  What this means, is when someone tells me he's using .020" ticking, I don't know if  would measure it at .017", .018", .019", .020" , .021, .022" or .023".  The extra thou is "thrown in' becasue I don't know how he's squeezing the jaws or even if he is squeezing them - by the little wheel, or between his fingers on the jaws.  OxYoke .108" ticking that I tried from Track, measured .016" for me and shot that way as well.

I have tested 3 different makes of micrometer and the readings were all within .001".  I spin the rachet - brrrrrt- and take a reading. The 2 'other' mics racheted easier than mine and made a .001" thcker measurement, is all, in both materials.  I decided the mic was most consistant, which bore out through re-testing material - gives the same thickness, time after time, whereas there seemed to be just about .001" difference sometimes, in material re-checked with calipers.  So - whatever system works for you, the data should be recorded in your 'loading develpement book".

 I find 3-ring binders the best for recording this sort of thing. The older you get, the more difficult it is to remember some things.

 It's a lot easier to remember gun to gun, if you use the same patch material in all of them.  To accomplish this quite-desirable trait, certain 'formulas' that seem to work in all guns are good to test.
 
Over the years, we've found that: a ball .005" smaller than the bore in .40cal. & larger with a .018" to .022" ticking or denim patch - mic measurement.  This worked well in all guns tested - maybe 100 different guns, maybe 200?  That combination worked in all of them.  These are mic measurements. Add .002" or more for calipers.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I had a problem with Mink Oil that I bought from TOW - probably not a fault in the lube, but in my patches.
For my jaeger .60 cal. rifle, I have always used blue jean material from the backs of the legs of worn out jeans.  This measures .030" by my Vernier's calipers, and with spit or my WW/M/NO lube, shoots very very well.  So I lubed up some patches with Mink oil and went hunting.  First, I found that this combination went down the bore awfully easily, and attributed it to the sliptivity of the grease.  I pulled a load this morning that was in the bore overnight, after taking the head off a ruffed grouse yesterday morning, and the patch was badly torn...almost disolved!!  So, my conclusion is that the material is too old and tired for use with the grease, and I'll have to use new denim for my patches.  It's a good thing I didn't get a crack at Mr. Big yesterday.  Sometimes being frugal is very costly.
I'm going to use Neetsfoot oil on new denim this sunday, and see how I like that.

[Pvt. Lon Grifle]

You may wish to harden your casting alloy. Maybe pick up a little more diameter, especially if you cast a little hotter than usual. For squirrels, and larger game up to your caliber's usefulness,  hardness just doesn't matter. 

In the alternative size some .360 common buckshot down to 38 or 9mm diameters and get a nice little round bottom cylinder with a round nose.  That's the cheap try; cut open a shotshell.   Lon