Boyer swivel breech latch spring

[keweenaw]

Taylor posted a photo of one type of latch spring for swivel breeches the other day   Got me thinking about these sketches of the latching mechanism for an original Boyer so thought I would post them.





Tom

[David Rase]

Tom,  Those pictures pretty much look like the swivel breech action parts set I bought from Bernie at Pioneeer Arms a few year ago.  Same concept.
DMR

[keweenaw]

This looks like pretty much the standard way to do this but thought I'd post the sketches for those who haven't thought about this.  Boyer keyed his breech plugs into the rotating plate.  I noticed in looking at the photos of the Antes rifle that he didn't.  I was wondering what approach Taylor was going to use to fasten the barrels to the rotating plate?

Tom

[Dphariss]

I am boring holes in plates right now and if everything works I will post some photos.
The one I have now I did with more complexity than needed but its worked perfectly for hundreds of shots.

Dan

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Tom, that's a neat spring, and I can see how it would work beautifully.  The oval pierced spring is the only one that I have seen, and is the one similar to what Nicholas Hawk used.
Here's a sketch of the action that I think I might make for my rendition.  I'm open for critique that will improve the design.  Bear in mind that my rifle will have hooked breeches - I MUST remove my barrels for cleaning.

[Dave Waters]

It probably won't matter, because of the small amount of pin movement involved, but it looks like the pins will not retract equally. I think that may be why the "heart spring" was more popular. Also, if i see this right and the trigger guard stud is a projection of the "C" shaped spring, the trigger guard will tend to twist a little to the side as you pull to release the swivel. Also, being a sketch, i wonder if this idea was ever really tried?

Just some thots.

Dave Waters

[keweenaw]

That sketch is a drawing of an original Boyer rifle and he made a lot of swivel breech rifles so I assume it worked. It's not clear from the sketches if the trigger guard stud is a part of the spring.  If I were making this I would put a plate in front of the spring to which the stud was attached and pivot it off of the back of the standing breech.

Taylor, those hooked breeches certainly solve the problem of attaching the barrels to the rotating plate w/o keying them in and it should work great but what a ton of careful fitting to get them both dead tight. I would think the weak point will  be when the barrels are off and the attachment of the paneled forestock to the rotating plate would be only by the screws through the pan sections which I assume would be keyed into the rotating plate the same way the lock and side plate are to the standing breech.

Tom

[Dphariss]

Tom, that's a neat spring, and I can see how it would work beautifully.  The oval pierced spring is the only one that I have seen, and is the one similar to what Nicholas Hawk used.
Here's a sketch of the action that I think I might make for my rendition.  I'm open for critique that will improve the design.  Bear in mind that my rifle will have hooked breeches - I MUST remove my barrels for cleaning.

I have a double pin design that is too complex, 2 springs, pins connected with a bar. The piece that retracts them is not attached to bar but is simply under it and levers the bar back. It seems to work well and all the holes are as reamed since the pins do not have to tilt as they move. It has seen quite a bit of shooting and its still tight.
 

The one in the works will have a single circular spring, 2 pins like Taylors and a lever as used here.

I use one of those flintlock cleaning gizmos that TOW sells on this rifle works about as well as cleaning a hooked breech in a bucket.
This requires removing the pans. PITA
The breeches are patent breeches that are attached with screws through the plate, 1/4 x28.
The plates are 5/16.
Pivot is made from a 3/8" grade 8 bolt.
Forend panels are 2 pieces.
Current project will have round holes in the plates and the barrels will be held to it with taper pins. At least this is the current plan. The pins will also allow removing the breeches which on this rifle will be "plain".
Round holes in the plates are far easier to do than square and I can turn the breeches to fit on the lathe.
Any looseness in the barrel/plate joint will likely affect accuracy. This is true of single hooked breeches and I cannot see it not affecting a swivel breech.

I am currently attempting to make dies for brass forend panels.
I have a 48"x 12" x .040? brass sheet from Alcobra Metals to mangle in the process. 

Dan

[Dave Waters]

snyder, thanks for the clarification. I sketch out ideas but never use them. Figured the old guys did the same.

Taylor, I use a hooked breech on all the SB's I've built (13 so far) and i overcame the careful fitting by using a ball nose screw through the top edge of the front plate. The screw bears against a 10deg angled surface on a square extension of the breech plug and pulls the breech back against the swivel plate tight as new every time. It works great! Also, it makes it simple to hold the height of the top barrel flat in relation to the top of the front swivel plate. I also pin the barrels separate so I can remove one barrel without disturbing the other.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Well, there's lots to think about here, isn't there?  Dan, Dave, and Tom, thanks for your insights.  Dan, I like the idea of the tapered pins to hold the breeches tightly in the front plate.  Years ago, I built an underhammer gun with a THREE INCH BARREL x 54" long.  It had a 1" smooth bore, and weighed something like 60 pounds.  Anyway, I used a 5/16" tapered pin to secure the butt stock's standing breech to the plug, and it did a fabulous job.  I could handle seeing the ends of those pins on the front plate, but Dave, I want to avoid screw heads as much as possible.
At this stage, I have planned on a one piece forestock.  In all cases, cleaning this rifle is going to take more work that the conventional longrifle.  
I think of it as giving my lover a bath...that's all I want to say about that.

[Dphariss]

Well, there's lots to think about here, isn't there?  Dan, Dave, and Tom, thanks for your insights.  Dan, I like the idea of the tapered pins to hold the breeches tightly in the front plate.  Years ago, I built an underhammer gun with a THREE INCH BARREL x 54" long.  It had a 1" smooth bore, and weighed something like 60 pounds.  Anyway, I used a 5/16" tapered pin to secure the butt stock's standing breech to the plug, and it did a fabulous job.  I could handle seeing the ends of those pins on the front plate, but Dave, I want to avoid screw heads as much as possible.
At this stage, I have planned on a one piece forestock.  In all cases, cleaning this rifle is going to take more work that the conventional longrifle.  
I think of it as giving my lover a bath...that's all I want to say about that.

Cleaning is double trouble
I clean one completely before starting the other.

Dan

[chris laubach]

Here are some pictures of one I am building.











Chris Laubach

[keweenaw]

Chris that is really nice.  It wouldn't have occurred to me to use other than round latch pins but I can immediately see the advantage of yours.  Just much harder to cut the rectangular seats for them rather than drilling a pair of aligned  holes.  Of course the first pair of holes or slots is the easy one, the second gets more difficult.  More ideas make this business fun.

Tom

[Dphariss]

Chris
Nice.
I really like the spring.
I am a round pin guy since I am too lazy to do the rectangular holes
I was thinking of using a fixed lower tang too but want DSTs.

Dan

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Chris, I really welcome your input on this subject.  You are well on the way with your standing breech and release spring fabricated.  Your design and execution are well done.
May I ask how you went about creating the two tangs attached solid with the back plate?  Is it milled from solid stock, or welded up?  For a man who forges barrels, this is probably child's play.

[chris laubach]

Chris, I really welcome your input on this subject.  You are well on the way with your standing breech and release spring fabricated.  Your design and execution are well done.
May I ask how you went about creating the two tangs attached solid with the back plate?  Is it milled from solid stock, or welded up?  For a man who forges barrels, this is probably child's play.

Taylor
This has been an on going project, that I had hoped to have completed by know and selling the complete actions.
The process has been: model the complete swivel breech in 3D CAD than wire EDM and Milling Machine to make the parts. We where fortunate to have several original swivels to study during the design phase of the project.

Here are a couple more pictures:









Chris Laubach

[Jim Kibler]

That is some beautiful work Chris.  Look forward to seeing the project as it progresses.

-Jim

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Fabulous and exciting stuff Chris!  Thanks for posting this... I too am looking forward to more.

[Leatherbelly]

   You guys blow my mind!