Author Topic: Would this make a problem at your club?  (Read 17121 times)

Offline Roger Fisher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6805
Re: Would this make a problem at your club?
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2010, 05:40:15 PM »
You should have said something before the shoot last Saturday.  If your club is open sights only the shooter should have been told before he shot, it's way too late now.
This club is not 'my' club and I am not an 'officer' of said club, nor am I range Officer.  This young guy was actually shooting awhile b/4 I noticed those peep sights.  I didn't want to be a P      about it so I kept my big mouth shut (which isn't easy).  I checked their 'rule' book and it says nothing about peep sights in the offhand matches.


Offline SCLoyalist

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 697
Re: Would this make a problem at your club?
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2010, 06:57:50 PM »
If the rule book doesn't prohibit peeps, or equivalently say something like "only open sights in offhand matches", the man sounds like he was shooting legal, fair & square, etc to me.   Instead of bashing him for unsportsmanlike conduct, you could equally praise him for thinking outside the box, &  being innovative so as to give his fellow shooters his best competitive effort to overcome.

And,  from the peep sight user's point of view, suppose (hypothetically) he had made a special effort to attend the match, driven a couple of hundred miles looking forward to friendly competition and making new buddies, and then gotten pinged on because he wasn't following an unwritten rule.   He could have left thinking the hosting club would do ANYTHING to make sure one of their own good ol' boy members won.  I recall a few years ago making inquiries about the rules for an upcoming match (a match, not a rendezvous), and asked if inline pistols were allowed in the pistol match.  Instead of a yes/no answer, I was only told they 'preferred you to shoot tradtional pistol.'  I would not have been happy competing with a Kentucky flinter against inline zip guns, Rugers and Patriots, nor would I have been happy taking my Zip gun and being the only guy on the line with one.   The rules define what a level playing field is for an event.
 
If the incident really bothers the club and the members feel it violated the spirit of the game, a rule change is in order before next year.   At a Range Officer Training class, I think I remember the instructor saying one approach is for a club to invoke the NMLRA rule book, with any exceptions the local club wants to make posted.   Start the match off by saying "Guys, club rules are posted over on that bulletin board.   Read and Heed.   Good shooting."

It's been thought provoking thread- thanks for starting it.  SCL

Offline BrentD

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 199
Re: Would this make a problem at your club?
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2010, 07:13:11 PM »
I'm not quite sure I know what "open" sights are. 

Is this an open sight?


Our matches are generally "iron" sights and "any" sights.  The latter including scopes, the former does not include scopes.  And that is all there is to it. Works for us. 

I don't think a peep sight is a huge advantage in an off hand match.  In a bench match, maybe, esp at longer distances. In an offhand match.  Not so much.


Offline SCLoyalist

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 697
Re: Would this make a problem at your club?
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2010, 07:33:42 PM »
I'm not quite sure I know what "open" sights are. 

Is this an open sight?




The sight pictured isn't an open sight, at least according to NMLRA rule 5020:  Must have a U, V or Rectangular opeing, as wide at the top as any part of the notch.  A buckhorn sight is legal provided the horns have a minimum of 1/4 inch opening at the top.....Fixed rear open sights may have no mechanical means of adjusting windage or elevation....Adjustable Rear open sight may have a mechanical means of adjusting. 

What you pictured would meet the rule for Any Metallic Sight or the rule for Any Sight.

Of course, not many clubs follow NMLRA rules too closely.

Offline BrentD

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 199
Re: Would this make a problem at your club?
« Reply #29 on: November 11, 2010, 07:50:53 PM »
SCL, thanks for the clarification. 

Brent

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4530
Re: Would this make a problem at your club?
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2010, 09:13:33 PM »
We use peep sights effectively at 1000 yds. Absolutely better than open sights BUT,I think that the main issue in 50 yd matches is the "offhand"   I think that is the real equalizer.
Wouldn't bother me under those circumstances.

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Would this make a problem at your club?
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2010, 09:52:51 PM »
Not sure the offhand position qualifies as an equalizer, Bob. I've shot some mighty fine targets with apertures at 50 yards and 100 for that matter in offhand position, 'Times' tighter than I could with open sights. 

Here, the sight simply must have an opening at the top. A jeweler's saw will make a peep-sight legal for those who actually cannot see any notch in a rear sight.  If my sight was a lot worse, that's what I'd do - probably with an undersized full buckhorn. So far, the notches in my rear sights are growing with the help of a file and they're useable again.  The 2 rifles with Express sights are the best, visibly.(wide V and bead)






Here, these are also legal -




Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4530
Re: Would this make a problem at your club?
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2010, 02:02:40 AM »
I meant that offhand was an equalizer where most folks we've shot with were concerned...not you Daryl !  I'd want every advantage, or as level a playing field as possible if you were shooting ;D

Offline Standing Bear

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 667
Re: Would this make a problem at your club?
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2010, 02:09:44 AM »
You should have said something before the shoot last Saturday.  If your club is open sights only the shooter should have been told before he shot, it's way too late now.
This club is not 'my' club and I am not an 'officer' of said club, nor am I range Officer.  This young guy was actually shooting awhile b/4 I noticed those peep sights.  I didn't want to be a P      about it so I kept my big mouth shut (which isn't easy).  I checked their 'rule' book and it says nothing about peep sights in the offhand matches.



Yep, sounds like the 30XXX shooter knew what was going on.  Looks like there was no problem to begin with.
TC
« Last Edit: November 12, 2010, 06:04:11 AM by TComp »
Nothing is hard if you have the right equipment and know how to use it.  OR have friends who have both.

http://texasyouthhunting.com/

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Would this make a problem at your club?
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2010, 10:02:04 AM »
That's my take as well, TComp.

Bob -  I always compete on a level ground, unless Im shooting the 14 bore.  I think it's either the concussion wave or perhaps the ground movement that disturbs the other shooters.

Walker Mountain

  • Guest
Re: Would this make a problem at your club?
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2010, 10:33:07 AM »
It’s a fact of life as we get older a person’s eyes lose their focusing ability and a “old shooter” no longer able to hold a good iron-sight picture and it happens to everybody. But you still want to shoot, even competitively; They say it helps to move the rear sight farther down the barrel even as far and beyond the fore stock entrance pipes if needed, trying different sights could optimize your sight picture too. But the simplest and probably the most significant thing you can do is to use an “optical” sight aids a pinhole device on your shooting glasses, this will sharpen the focus of objects at every distance. You can buy these but are very simple to make just use a small piece of black plastic electricians tape with a 1/16-inch hole punch in it (the smallest size punch of a common leather punch). Make several and keep them stuck to something inside your shooting pouch, like the top and bottom of a cap box, when needed just peel off and stick it onto your glasses, up in the inner corner for rifle shooting. The truth is it’s not rocket science, I read a story about an old buffalo hunter that would smear mud on his glasses and when dried picked a small pinhole, they had the knowledge. The important thing is to keep on shooting, the pinhole glasses don’t give any advantage over younger eyes, but sure help overcome the disadvantage of older eyes. Free Trapper  ;D

Offline Roger Fisher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6805
Re: Would this make a problem at your club?
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2010, 05:45:59 PM »
I have since examined that club's 'booklet' listing each month's shoots and the targets etc are listed for each month on seperate pages. I have found now, that each listing for each match states whether that match is open sights or 'metallic' sights.  I realize now that I have done them a disservice in implying that  the shooter shooting with the fancy peep sights was shooting those sights in an open sight match. He was not :o  The shooters shooting open sights were shooting a metallic sight match with their 'open' sights. Which was all well and good. I apologize for my error.  (Which isn't easy)

Anyway, some ol guys have to pay attention better ::)

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Would this make a problem at your club?
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2010, 06:28:45 PM »
Don't fret Roge r- some of us makes mistakes all the time - apologising is becoming easy - the more you do it, the easier it is. ;D

Offline FL-Flintlock

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2176
    • Fire & Iron Mfg.
Re: Would this make a problem at your club?
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2010, 03:18:33 PM »
The "rules" is an argument I've gotten into several times over.  The "rules" are the "rules" - there's no "allowance" or "discussion" the day of the match, they are what they are and need to be or things will spiral out of control until most of the shooters just say "screw it".  Back in the 80's I shot in a circuit that demanded mil-spec only with the only exceptions being for muzzle breaks, the actions could be tweaked but no parts could be added/removed.  It didn't take long before there was talk of allowing guns and equipment "in the same class" and it spiraled downhill from there, enter the sponsors with their $10k+ custom guns shooting target loads as opposed to mil-spec, then away went the rule of having to carry all your stuff with you for the entire match as it was part of the original competition.... end result was wrecking the game and pushing all the poor working-class shooters out of it and the whole thing flopped with a year because spectators had no desire to go watch a bunch of snotty "employee" shooters using equipment the common folks would never have.

My take on this now, is exactly what my take was before - if you change or bend the rules for one thing, you may as well just throw the whole book out and forget it.  If you're going to allow the "old dude" to use an aperture sight or eyeglass-mounted aperture clarifier, then all the shooter must be afforded the use of such.  I'm more familiar with CF matches but in most of those, especially when there's substantial prizes, the rules are usually quite detailed and no "exceptions" are ever even considered.  If you're going to give "consideration" for eyesight then why not afford someone with physical issues the consideration of using a stick or bench in the offhand match?  I mean, if you're going to allow eyesight enhancers, why not allow physical enhancers as well?  I have a couple steady clients who are nearly double my age, both have eyesight issues yet with my physical issues, I don't stand a chance against either one of them in an offhand bullseye match.  This is no different than the golfer who wanted to ride in the cart because his legs hurt yet all the others had to walk ... sorry Charlie, the rules are what they are for a reason.

Mark
The answers you seek are found in the Word, not the world.

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: Would this make a problem at your club?
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2010, 07:58:50 PM »
The "rules" is an argument I've gotten into several times over.  The "rules" are the "rules" - there's no "allowance" or "discussion" the day of the match, they are what they are and need to be or things will spiral out of control until most of the shooters just say "screw it".  Back in the 80's I shot in a circuit that demanded mil-spec only with the only exceptions being for muzzle breaks, the actions could be tweaked but no parts could be added/removed.  It didn't take long before there was talk of allowing guns and equipment "in the same class" and it spiraled downhill from there, enter the sponsors with their $10k+ custom guns shooting target loads as opposed to mil-spec, then away went the rule of having to carry all your stuff with you for the entire match as it was part of the original competition.... end result was wrecking the game and pushing all the poor working-class shooters out of it and the whole thing flopped with a year because spectators had no desire to go watch a bunch of snotty "employee" shooters using equipment the common folks would never have.

My take on this now, is exactly what my take was before - if you change or bend the rules for one thing, you may as well just throw the whole book out and forget it.  If you're going to allow the "old dude" to use an aperture sight or eyeglass-mounted aperture clarifier, then all the shooter must be afforded the use of such.  I'm more familiar with CF matches but in most of those, especially when there's substantial prizes, the rules are usually quite detailed and no "exceptions" are ever even considered.  If you're going to give "consideration" for eyesight then why not afford someone with physical issues the consideration of using a stick or bench in the offhand match?  I mean, if you're going to allow eyesight enhancers, why not allow physical enhancers as well?  I have a couple steady clients who are nearly double my age, both have eyesight issues yet with my physical issues, I don't stand a chance against either one of them in an offhand bullseye match.  This is no different than the golfer who wanted to ride in the cart because his legs hurt yet all the others had to walk ... sorry Charlie, the rules are what they are for a reason.

Mark

This is why I quit shooting IPSC - the rule changers won.

Offline Standing Bear

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 667
Re: Would this make a problem at your club?
« Reply #40 on: November 18, 2010, 02:43:07 AM »
And the rule for the match in the initial post was AMS.
Nothing is hard if you have the right equipment and know how to use it.  OR have friends who have both.

http://texasyouthhunting.com/

Offline BJH

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1643
Re: Would this make a problem at your club?
« Reply #41 on: November 20, 2010, 03:03:59 AM »
An interesting thought. When I went to Florida to visit my sister in law I took a rifle and possibles along as there was a black powder shoot during my vacation down there. They had several diffierent classes including a" Magoo" class, as in Mr. Magoo, that was AMS with a minimum age requirement! I liked the gang of shooters and had a real good time. I was the only flint shooter there. I was probably one of the youngest shooters there also. I still shot well enough to place third overall. A good day.
BJH

Offline Standing Bear

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 667
Re: Would this make a problem at your club?
« Reply #42 on: November 20, 2010, 06:44:04 AM »
Like the name.  Knew EXACTLY what the restrictions were when I read it.
TC
Nothing is hard if you have the right equipment and know how to use it.  OR have friends who have both.

http://texasyouthhunting.com/