'Light gathering' rear sight........which way?

[Tenn Hills Guy]

Bought two of these rear sights with the 'scoop' for my new SB I'm building.  Taped one on the barrel trying to get the best sight picture and suddenly thought.....which way is this supposed to go!  I have an original built  with a Golcher lock.  It has the 'scoop' mounted rearward.  I see some pictures with this type mounted forward.  Both the new and old sights have a slope....seeming to me the scoop, dish, whatever should go forward.  Now, I don't want to go somewhere sporting my new rifle and have guys rolling on the ground with laughter........   Which way is correct?

[ken]

Hi there. You don,t want light reflected back at your eyes or a huge glear in the sights ,face it forward

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

The hollowed out dish or scoop is toward the muzzle end of the rifle.  The idea for that scoop is to thin the rear sight right at the notch, so that light does not bounce back and forth across the opening, causing a blurry sight.  The thinner your sight is at the notch, the finer it can be, and also the clearer to your vision.

[Tenn Hills Guy]

Indeed, that seems logical.  But, when I look at an 'original', I must ask if they knew something I don't.  Incidentally, I looked at an older CVA rifle I've had for years and it too had the scoop rearward!  Bill

[t.caster]

D.Taylor has it right! What you are seeing on an old original was probably done by a previous owner trying to be different, might have even worked for him, but it aint right. Same for the CVA.

[Roger Fisher]

Indeed, that seems logical.  But, when I look at an 'original', I must ask if they knew something I don't.  Incidentally, I looked at an older CVA rifle I've had for years and it too had the scoop rearward!  Bill

Well, remember - you were younger then

[Roger Fisher]

The hollowed out dish or scoop is toward the muzzle end of the rifle.  The idea for that scoop is to thin the rear sight right at the notch, so that light does not bounce back and forth across the opening, causing a blurry sight.  The thinner your sight is at the notch, the finer it can be, and also the clearer to your vision.

Young Taylor is on the mark.  'Scoop' forward and paper thin notch.

[Acer Saccharum]

The width of the notch plays a very important role in the clarity of the front sight. There is a perfect width of rear sight notch which will make the front sight clearer. If the rear notch is too narrow, the front sight looks fuzzy. Widen the notch and the front sight becomes clearer. 

Too wide, it's hard to guess when the front sight is in the middle of the notch.

[Tenn Hills Guy]

I got these from TOW, cast steel, requiring some polishing.  The notch is about as wide as a sheet of paper but adequate to get a good picture with my good eye!  Sadly, my tired old 'trigger eye' doesn't focus so good, so I'm still scotch taping the sight and moving it back and forth.  I notice, in pictures, the old time builders seemed to put the rear sight well forward.

[Dennis Glazener]

The width of the notch plays a very important role in the clarity of the front sight. There is a perfect width of rear sight notch which will make the front sight clearer. If the rear notch is too narrow, the front sight looks fuzzy. Widen the notch and the front sight becomes clearer.

Too wide, it's hard to guess when the front sight is in the middle of the notch. Wink

Playing around with rear sights and my old eyes, I found that making a wide rear sight notch, one that leaves lots of daylight on each side of the front sight, makes for better shooting for me! I have no problem centering the front sight in the rear notch.
Dennis

[smylee grouch]

I dont think it would be period correct but has anyone ever made the scooped area or dish brighter to colect more light. I was thinking that tinning the scoop or dish with silver solder might make it brighter and collect more light. Would this aid in seeing your sights?   Just an old man looking for help seeing better.    Gary

[rich pierce]

Most target shooters like to darken the rear sight to reduce glare.

[Tenn Hills Guy]

Seems counter-intuitive: darken a light gathering sight.  Actually, I thought about polishing the 'scoop' to improve whatever the design intent was.  Since they're going on a swivel breech,  maybe I'll polish one, darken the other..that should be a good test.  Makes one wonder though, these old guys had years of experience and were pretty deliberate.  Imagine the guy who was buying the riflem what/where would he use it.  Maybe the little 'light gathering' was of more importance to the woods hunter rather than the plains hunter.   Hhhmmmm, what kind of sights were on traditional plains rifles?

[bgf]

Playing around with rear sights and my old eyes, I found that making a wide rear sight notch, one that leaves lots of daylight on each side of the front sight, makes for better shooting for me! I have no problem centering the front sight in the rear notch.
Dennis

I found the same thing when I had to set up the sights on my ML pistol, which required filing down the rear sight and thus deepening the slot.  I didn't have a round file as fine as the original U-slot, so I used one that was a little bigger, thinking that it couldn't hurt much anyway, the way I shoot a pistol .  It is actually much more pleasant to use, and accuracy doesn't seem to be affected much if at all.  I was thinking about getting a backup sight for my rifle and trying the same thing on it.  I'm sure there is a point that is "too far", and I'll be sure to find it .

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

It's not a light gathering device.  It's a method of thinning the rear sight leaf so that the notch can be as thin as possible.  Many were formed with a punch before the rear leaf was filed out thin.  I use a small ball end mill to create the dish, bringing it as far back as I dare.

[flintriflesmith]

I really wonder where you guys got the idea that the "scoop" was to gather light.

The rear sight is seen just a profile and the thinning of the sight in the area of the notch is to prevent the sight from being anything else. The entire sight could be thin but it would be too fragile or cut the #@#@ out of your hand.

Both of Taylor's responses are right on the mark. A cherry used for making bullet moulds works great for smoothing out the surface of the "scoop." Look at the last picture of this pistol I made in 1976.
http://www.flintriflesmith.com/GunshopEraGuns/iron_mounted_pistol.htm

The rifle in RCA #2 attributed first to Bullard in VA and now to John Newcomer in Lancaster has a silver rear sight and the entir back side of it is still coated with a thick black oxide so there will be no glare.

Gary

[Tenn Hills Guy]

Light gathering........read it somewhere.  Why not just make a thin blade with a notch?  Must have been some reason for going to the trouble of grinding a thick piece.   Seems though if a 'thin notch' is the sole object, which way the scoop points is immaterial...............I gotta be missin' something?

[flintriflesmith]

If the entire rear sight blade was thin it would be too easy to bend or break. It would also be a hazard to the shooter because in handing the rifle the corners of the blade would cut your hand. (I think I said that already.)

Look at the rear sight on a modern S&W pistol and you will see that only the area right around the notch is thin.

If the scoop is faced to the rear -- toward the shooter's eye-- light coming from either the right or left will cause one side of the sight to be brighter and that, in turn will cause the point of aim to shift slightly from right to left. Probably not a big deal in a hunting rifle but it will definitely turn an X into a 10 at the range. Back when I did a lot of shooting, serious open sight target shooters often blackened the rear sight with candle soot to kill all glare. When I shot for the Army we were each given a carbide light to carry in our range gear for that same purpose.

Gary

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Fabulous pistol Gary, and your photo of the top of the barrel illustrates the rear sight well.
Here's the rear sight from one of the Jacob Kuntz rifles in the MET - the fancy one - and the sight for my own "Kuntz" rifle.  The sight is very effective, I will add.  And I have no idea at what range the leaf is sighted.
I wish I'd taken a tooth brush to it before the shot...

[Acer Saccharum]

He that gathers no light shall be in the dark. 

T

[okieboy]

 Beautiful sight D. Taylor. Did you make this from scratch?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Yessir, I did.  I wanted to make the sight that Jacob used on his fancy rifle, so I filed it out.  Funny thing - it cost me points at Dixon's because it wasn't Lehigh enough.  I like it as a sight because it is close to the barrel and is clear enough for me old eyes to see well.

[okieboy]

 I am wondering how you drilled for the leaf. Assembled or two seperate pieces? one long hole or two holes, one from each side?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I'm pretty sure I drilled the two short studs from the outside - in, and the leaf separately.  It's a 1/16" drill rod pin.  The hub of the leaf was filed with the whole thing assembled.  The bottom side of the leaf has an eccentric lump that holds the leaf down firmly in the rest position, and in the vertical too, under the tension of a leaf spring secured in a dovetail under the sight.

[roamer]

Wow,you guys saved me the embarrassment. The guys on the forum helped me with my guns slow hammer and now reading this discussion recognised i put my rear sight on backwords.