Webley and Scott Damasccus shot gun

[roamer]

Tomorrow is supposed to be beautiful here in  Ohio
Going to my buddies farm in Geaga cty
A couple of yrs ago a business partner in trying to buy his black soul back ,gave me a beautiful W&S Damascus barrel double barrel shot gun .According to the book she was made in 1872.She was  purchased on consignment from Log Cabin.Dan checked and a gunsmith checked and she is sweet and mint. Shot her a couple of times and silk.

What f powder and how many grains of powder should I  use,also how many ounces of shot should i use.

[Dphariss]

Tomorrow is supposed to be beautiful here in  Ohio
Going to my buddies farm in Geaga cty
A couple of yrs ago a business partner in trying to buy his black soul back ,gave me a beautiful W&S Damascus barrel double barrel shot gun .According to the book she was made in 1872.She was  purchased on consignment from Log Cabin.Dan checked and a gunsmith checked and she is sweet and mint. Shot her a couple of times and silk.

What f powder and how many grains of powder should I  use,also how many ounces of shot should i use.

I would use F or 1.5f Swiss. Its very close to the powders made and used in late 19th century Britain.
Need a bore size to figure charges but I would use trap loads for the bore size. 12 bore 3 -3 1/4 drams of powder  and 1 oz of shot to start.
DO NOT use "replica" powders no need. Some are very corrosive compared to BP and require more involved cleaning processes.

Dan

[roamer]

Could you kindly explain how many grains to a dram .Thanks

[roamer]

She is 12 bordering on 13 gauge

[T*O*F]

In a pound of powder, there are 7000 grains, 256 drams, or 16 ounces.
Thus 7000/256 = 27.344 grains in a dram.

[LynnC]

One pound 7000 gr
16 oz to 1 lb
16 drams to 1 oz
1 dram about 27 1/3 gr
Enjoy that double
Lynn

[LynnC]

TOF types faster:)

[roamer]

Again my humble thanks

[T*O*F]

Like Dan said, we need to know the gauge to suggest a load.
However, if you look at a box of modern shotgun shells, I think they still give the "drams equivalent" load information.  You can use that information, depending on what you are shooting.

Also, many shotgun shooters use what is known as a "square load" as a starting point.  You use your powder measure as a shot measure too.  If you are shooting 70 grains of powder, set your powder measure for that and then use the same setting for your shot.

Definitely use Swiss 1.5fg if you can get it.  It has the least shot to shot velocity variance of any powder, usually less than 10 fps.

[Daryl]

1872? Perhaps this is a strange question - is this shotgun a muzzleloader?  By '72, most or many makers in England were making ctg. guns I believe.  Quite possible they still made Ml's though.

[T*O*F]

1972?

Daryl,
Turn on the lights and put your glasses on.

[Feltwad]

Your date of 1872 may be a bit early has the firm of Webley and Scott was not formed till later ,their main production were revolvers for the War Department  and also rifles.They did make muzzle loading shotguns for export some did have Damascus barrels but most  were laminated steel.
In an old American catalogue these guns were advertised as follows
W.&.C. Scott & Sons  muzzle loading d/b gun ,fine twist  Damascus barrel, patent breech, percussion fence, bar locks, oiled walnut stock,checkered hand, 12 bore 32 and 34inch barrels, weight 7.1/2 to 8.1/2 lbs Price $18 . 66. For a 10 bore  weighing 8.1/2  to 9 lbs the price was $20
The load I would recommend for standard 12 bore for game shooting would be 2.3/4 drms of FFFg powder to 1.1/16 oz of No 6 shot
Feltwad

[Daryl]

TKS TOf- I corrected the typo.

 

[Daryl]

Feltwad - is the faster powder, ie: 3F suggested due to it's faster presssure climb, then a subsequent drop in muzzle pressure compared to a slower burning propellent's muzzle pressure - perhaps to increase pattern density?  I've heard of others speaking of this as well.  It is supposedly the reason for very fast burning shotgun powder development, or was that to fit a good wad system into a shotshell case?  Water's muddied some in regards burning rate of powder.

[roamer]

Well the jury is out. I will check again with the book supplied with the gun on the history of W/S and report back.
Always appreciate you collective insights

[roamer]

Whoops she deffiniteley is a m/l damascus

[roamer]

Whoops, she definitely is m/l Damascus.Between barrels is engraved FIRE TWIST and she is a 12g

[T*O*F]

I will check again with the book supplied with the gun on the history of W/S and report back.

In October, 1897 P. Webley merged with the old established Birmingham firm of W&C Scott and Son to form the Webley and Scott Revolver and Arms Company Limited.

Prior to the merger Webley guns were sold bearing no name, but "Best Qaulity" guns were signed P. Webley & Son, St. James, London.  After the opening of the Shaftesbury Avenue showroom in 1983, the best Webley guns will be found bearing this address.

The firm of Tipping and Lawden had been acquired by Webleys in 1877 and after this date Webley guns were sold bearing this name.

In 1906 the name of the company was shortened to Webley & Scott LTD, and the manufacture of guns and rifles was transferred to Scott's Lancaster Street works in 1909.  By this time all W&S guns offered in their catalogues were breechloaders.

The way your gun is marked as to name variation and location should pinpoint its approx. year of manufacture.  It can be no earlier than 1897 unless its an outright  forgery or parts have been swapped out to give the impression that it's a W&S.

[Feltwad]

Daryl I have always used 3f powder in sxs shotguns in 12,14, and 16 bore with barrels of 28 to 30 inches ,has a fast burning powder  it only takes this barrel length to burn all the charge of powder.When using the large bore guns I use Fg for the 4 and 6 bore guns with a barrel of 40 + inches  and 2Fg for 8.9.10 bore guns with similar length of barrel. To use Fg or 2f  in a short barrel you will find because it is slower burning that part of the charge leaves the muzzle unburnt,it needs a long barrel  to burn and reach its full pressure.
Feltwad

[Daryl]

Daryl I have always used 3f powder in sxs shotguns in 12,14, and 16 bore with barrels of 28 to 30 inches ,has a fast burning powder  it only takes this barrel length to burn all the charge of powder.When using the large bore guns I use Fg for the 4 and 6 bore guns with a barrel of 40 + inches  and 2Fg for 8.9.10 bore guns with similar length of barrel. To use Fg or 2f  in a short barrel you will find because it is slower burning that part of the charge leaves the muzzle unburnt,it needs a long barrel  to burn and reach its full pressure.
Feltwad

Tks for your thoughts on the burning rate, Feltwad.  I am not convinced though, that part of my charge is leaving the muzzle unburnt, if using 2f in the little 20 bore, let alone the 14 or 12.  

[roamer]

W C SCOTT & SONS was formed in 1834 merging with Webley in 1897 to become Webley and Scott.In an article published by Belgravia Magazine in 1872,Cadwaller Waddy discusses how WC Scott made their Damascus barrel muzzle loading shotgun barrels.
in "The History of W C SCOTT Gunmakers by JA CRAWFORD and PG WHATLEY 1st print 1982,2ND print 1985,reprinted 1991,Scott & Webley produced muzzle loading shotguns until 1890.They also note that in catalogs issued until 1905 listed Scott muzzeloaders
As of 1989,Webley and Scott was still producing shotguns,and thru the years have marketed shotguns in Scotts name only
No TOF shes for real

[roamer]

Would any body have any suggestions of the loads and shot for goose shoot

[roamer]

By the way,on the before mentioned message ,my gun is the exact of the picture of the shotgun made in 1860 and shown at the International Exhibition in London,noted on page 20

[Dphariss]

Daryl I have always used 3f powder in sxs shotguns in 12,14, and 16 bore with barrels of 28 to 30 inches ,has a fast burning powder  it only takes this barrel length to burn all the charge of powder.When using the large bore guns I use Fg for the 4 and 6 bore guns with a barrel of 40 + inches  and 2Fg for 8.9.10 bore guns with similar length of barrel. To use Fg or 2f  in a short barrel you will find because it is slower burning that part of the charge leaves the muzzle unburnt,it needs a long barrel  to burn and reach its full pressure.
Feltwad

The English did not use fine grained powder in shotguns according to Greener.
I think the "unburned powder blowing out the muzzle" is a myth. I think Ned Roberts' leg was heavily pulled by Brockway on this and these guys were not above such things.

As a test try shooting F or FF in a shotgun and see at what point the velocity no longer increases. I bet its much higher than you think. I would think you will quit adding powder due to recoil first.

My 16 bore rifle with a 1 ounce ball will still gain velocity at  5.5 drams of FF Swiss. 30" barrel. If its still making velocity increases its gotta be burning  the powder.

Dan

[Feltwad]

All of my findings are from practical use over several decades of shotgun shooting ,W.W.Greeners writings are mostly of the nitro period of early breech loaders .
Feltwad