Author Topic: Original Jaeger rifle twist  (Read 24076 times)

Offline Artificer

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Original Jaeger rifle twist
« on: November 15, 2010, 06:25:42 PM »
I didn't want to hijack the fast rifle twist thread, but Richpierce brought up something that triggered some old questions in my mind.

Rich wrote: "I have wondered about this.  I have an original jaeger barrel, .62 caliber, 28" long, with one complete turn in the length of the barrel."

In the late 70's, they had an original flint jaeger rifle in a Museum in Downtown Indianapolis.  I went to the museum as they advertised and had George Rogers Clark's Buckskin coat on display on a manikin and I wanted to look it over as well as I could.  (The style was in the form of a colonist's "Regimental Coat" and I found that fascinating, but that's another story.)  In that area they also had an extremely short original flint jaeger. 

That Jaeger rifle barrel was only 19" long and on the description card, it stated it also had a one turn in the barrel rifling twist or 1 in 19".  The caliber looked between .60 and 65. though it was not written on the card.  The rifle did not look like it had ever been cut down as the thimbles and nose cap all looked "right."  There was no date on the jaeger.   Looking at the lock and stock hardware, I imagine it was no earlier than maybe 1730 and could have been as late as 1780 by my guess at the time.  It was a very plain rifle with only a little incise carving.  I am not sure exactly of the intended use of that rifle, but I imagine as it was so short, it was for close range.  Because it did not have raised carving or expensive inlays, I would not call it a "Gentleman's rifle."  It looked to me like a rifle a Jaegermeister would carry to "finish off" a client's wounded game.

I have heard before that there was a tendency for some Jaeger barrels to have a "one turn in the barrel length" rifling.  In this short of a barrel, I can not imagine it putting much spin on the bullet.  Would that short of barrel had the rifling just to give black powder fouling "somewhere to go" so it would not foul as easily on follow up shots?

Levy

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2010, 06:50:06 PM »
As I mentioned to Rich Pierce, I have what I believe is a military jaeger from about 1820.  It is converted to percussion and has a hook breech.  The barrel is 29" in length and the twist is one turn in 29".  the caliber is .58.  It has a three leaf rear sight, so I would guess it was intended to be able to shoot over some distance with some expectation of hitting the target.  The rifling apprears to be deep.

James Levy

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2010, 07:38:23 PM »
I think the jaeger rifling tends to be faster twist than what the Americans used on their longrifles.

I have heard that these were not loaded up with macho charges, but used as short range thumpers, finish the boar off, old boy, kind of thing. I suspect there was quite a high trajectory, hence a real need for leaf sights.

The 1650's Turkish BBL I have is about .54, and 19" long, with approx 1 turn in 38"  It has two rear peep sight holes, one for point blank, and the other 1/4" higher.

T
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 07:40:02 PM by Acer Saccharum »
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2010, 09:27:29 PM »
Acer,

Have to admit I had a senior moment and had to read your post three times before I think I got it.  Are you are saying with the lower powder charges the velocity would have been lower and hence would have caused the trajectory to not be as flat and therefore required more leaf sights because the bullet drop would have been greater?   Or another way to explain it the arc of the bullet would have been greater over short ranges with lower powder charges, so it would have been much more difficult to estimate where to aim without the additional sight leaves? 

Gus

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2010, 09:34:50 PM »
Levy and all,

I should also have mentioned I have no experience with round ball rifles that have a twist faster than 1 in 48 or so, unless my first TC Hawken in 1972 had a faster twist and I never checked that rifle's twist.  I am not sure how fast the twist is before it is too fast too do much good with a round ball.  Sorry.

Gus 

Offline lexington1

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2010, 10:11:18 PM »
Here is an original Jaeger in my collection. The bore measures approx. .620 across the lands. The barrel is 25" in length and it has quite deep grooves. The twist is approx: 1:48. 
« Last Edit: January 22, 2021, 04:42:38 PM by rich pierce »

Offline Longknife

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2010, 10:40:08 PM »
It seems that a lot of the "old world" makers used a faster twist than we are used to. I have a percussion double rifle maked "J. Springer vorm. Nowotny in Wein", in gold on the top barrel rib. It also has the date (?) 1858 on the bottom rib. It is 18 bore or about .640. I haven't slugged it yet. As for the 26 inch barrels the rt one is 1/26 and the left is straight rifled. The rifling is 12 lands and grooves. It has a folding expesss sight also. Why would one be straight and one rifled????...Ed
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Offline Stophel

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2010, 10:58:24 PM »
My one old German rifle is Ca. 1830.  The barrel is about 16" long.  60-some odd caliber.  One turn in about 32"

I also have a Massachusetts rifle of close to the same vintage.  Barrel is 41" long, about .58 caliber, and also about one turn in 32"   ;)
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2010, 11:12:32 PM »
Here is an original Jaeger in my collection. The bore measures approx. .620 across the lands. The barrel is 25" in length and it has quite deep grooves. The twist is approx: 1:48. 

The Jaeger in the museum I mentioned was pretty similar to your rifle, though it did not have the button on top of the buttplate, did not have sling swivels (and as short as it was I can understand that), the trigger guard was a bit different and had just the barest amount of incised carving. 

However, the twist in your rifle seems to me to be more reasonable.
Is it possible they slowed the twist after they were somewhat used to faster twists in earlier guns?

Gus

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2010, 05:00:06 AM »
Straight rifling can be used with shot or patched roundball. I have heard the straight rifles allow easier loading once shot a few times, like, after the fouling builds up a bit..
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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2010, 07:42:15 AM »
Longknife, i concur with Acer i suspect you gun was designed to be able to be used as a "cape gun" being able to be loaded when out to fill the pot, either shoot ball at a large animal or shot at small game, straight "rifling" is not terribly uncommon in black powder shotguns, it was supposed to help keep groups more "full" or have the pellets more even distributed through the pattern, not to mention making reloading easier
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2010, 03:58:56 PM »
It seems that a lot of the "old world" makers used a faster twist than we are used to. I have a percussion double rifle maked "J. Springer vorm. Nowotny in Wein", in gold on the top barrel rib. It also has the date (?) 1858 on the bottom rib. It is 18 bore or about .640. I haven't slugged it yet. As for the 26 inch barrels the rt one is 1/26 and the left is straight rifled. The rifling is 12 lands and grooves. It has a folding expesss sight also. Why would one be straight and one rifled????...Ed

One was for shot and being straight rifled could be the same bore size and use the same ball and patch.
A smooth barrel of the same bore will require a smaller ball or much thinner patch.

Dan
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2010, 05:51:38 PM »
Gentlemen,

Thanks to everyone for their replies.

I still don't have my head wrapped around something about the faster twist Jaeger barrels that are basically "one turn in the length of the barrel."  On a couple of original barrels mentioned here, the twist would have been 1 in 19 and 1 in 28.  I also remember one original Jaeger I read about that had a 1 in 32 inch barrel.  Does the fact of using lower powder charges allow those faster twist rates to spin the patched ball without stripping the patch - or in the case of an oversize ball being hammered in place - to not strip the small amount of lead forced into the rifling when the rifle is fired?   

Something else I thought about to add to this.  Is there a general assumption that powder in the 18th century did not apply as much force per volume as modern powder does? 

I also realize I may be mixing my knowledge of modern twist rates into blackpowder twist rates and I know we can't do that because it is an entirely different type of powder and projectile. 
Gus

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2010, 07:12:55 PM »
I think the key here is that those rifles were loaded with light loads...pistol loads if you like.  And they were not loaded with balls that required hammering down the ball with a mallet.  They were loaded with patch and ball combinations that could be pushed down with a very thin wooden ramrod.  I do not know where authors got the idea that Jaegers used an iron rod and a hammer to load their guns.  Once it is seen in print, it seems, the myth gets perpetuated until it becomes a universal truth.
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2010, 07:52:45 PM »
Quote
I do not know where authors got the idea that Jaegers used an iron rod and a hammer to load their guns.
 
In retrospect, where did you get the idea that they were not?

Quote
Once it is seen in print, it seems, the myth gets perpetuated until it becomes a universal truth.
Nothing is universal, once again the answer is about time and place.  These answers are to be found in European sources which are largely unavailable to us.  An evolution occurred in loading methodology which changed several times as technology evolved.  The origin of the nefarious "short starter" is also included in this evolution.

An interesting topic for later discussion which I don't really have time for now.  I did a paper on it about 15 years ago and have since uncovered additional sources.  Perhaps I may get around to doing an article for MB.
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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #15 on: November 16, 2010, 07:59:00 PM »
Thanks Taylor,

If I remember correctly, the British units that carried the Baker rifles were issued wooden mallets to drive the balls down their barrels.  This may have been mostly to overcome the powder fouling when firing many rounds in combat though.

I always thought that beating down oversize balls in rifle bores was more experimental than practical, even if it was done at times in the past.  It would seem that you could never keep the ball uniform nor uniformly fill in the grooves that way.
Gus

  

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #16 on: November 16, 2010, 08:02:05 PM »
TOF,

I look forward to the article.
Gus

Offline Stophel

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2010, 09:20:22 PM »
I think the key here is that those rifles were loaded with light loads...pistol loads if you like.  And they were not loaded with balls that required hammering down the ball with a mallet.  They were loaded with patch and ball combinations that could be pushed down with a very thin wooden ramrod.  I do not know where authors got the idea that Jaegers used an iron rod and a hammer to load their guns.  Once it is seen in print, it seems, the myth gets perpetuated until it becomes a universal truth.

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Offline Stophel

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2010, 09:22:09 PM »
And can anyone offer evidence that a patched ball can even "strip the grooves" anyway?
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Offline bgf

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2010, 09:48:52 PM »
I think the key here is that those rifles were loaded with light loads...pistol loads if you like.  And they were not loaded with balls that required hammering down the ball with a mallet.  They were loaded with patch and ball combinations that could be pushed down with a very thin wooden ramrod.  I do not know where authors got the idea that Jaegers used an iron rod and a hammer to load their guns.  Once it is seen in print, it seems, the myth gets perpetuated until it becomes a universal truth.

That was my first thought also.  Those calibers even at the low velocity of a light load should more than suffice for short range hunting, such as tracking and finishing off wounded prey.

Offline Z. Buck

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2010, 09:59:23 PM »
TOF, as to where the belief that such tight balls were not used, comes from the fact that a good number of jaegers are found with balls, and these in every example i have heard of there someone took the time to measure them were on the "loose" side, this even accounts for patching where used as a good number of them are found with sewn patches (most often leather) i am not an expert by any means just relating what i have found.
as far as striping grooves of a round ball, i don't know if we have direct evidence or not, but we do for other lead projectiles, so it is probably just a matter of inference. many of the more accurate twist formulas take into account weight of projectile length of projectile, mass of material, and target velocity. if you change the target velocity it changes your twist rate substantially.
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westerner

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2010, 04:25:21 AM »
I've shot a lot of round balls in all of my picket rifles. Twists from 24 to 52 inches.  I can tell little difference in accuracy between small powder charges or large.   My old picket rifles shoot round balls slightly more accurate than my slow twist Douglas barreled rifles.  The most notable difference is the choke bore in the old barrels.  

If a round ball is balanced, no air pockets or big sprues, I see no reason why spinning it faster would effect accuracy.  

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« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 04:30:46 AM by westerner »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2010, 06:46:13 AM »
I have often wondered why the twists were so fast. Before 1800 Baker had shown the British that slow twists shot accurately. But the British and others on the Continent I am sure, for the most part stubbornly clung to the fast twist.
The fast rifling twist and the multi-leaf sights kinda go together.
Many English rifles with fast twists using very light for the bore size powder charges had sights with leaves for 50 and 100 yards then perhaps another for 150. The typical American rifle needed only one sight for all three ranges with a little hold over at 150.
I think that the fast twist barrel was the result of using shotgun like powder charges and the resultant shotgun like velocities in rifles. The low velocities needed more twist for acccuracy and the fast twists WERE accurate if this is the only criteria.
 It takes substantially more powder to get a one ounce ball to 1600 fps than it does to move a 1 ounce charge of shot at 1250-1300. My 16 bore rifle needs 5 drams or more to make 1600. Why 1600? Because 1600+- gives a flat trajectory and good short range power for a "stopper". BUT this is dependent on the conditions under which the rifle is used. If used at ranges no more than 50 then much lower charges could be used for game like deer. So we are back the to European rifle with its fast twist and presumably light powder charges used for short range shooting at game. A load in the 16 bore (.662 ball) rifle that makes 1100 fps or so will kill as well at 20-30 yards as a 150 grain load will at 100 since the velocity at impact is not that much different. But the 1100 fps load will be impossible to zero past about 50 yards for the reasons in the following quote from "The Sporting Rifle and its Projectiles" by Forsythe.

While a turn in the barrel will give excellent accuracy in the bigger ball sizes it will limit velocity, so the 50 and 100 yard leaves. This according to Forsythe, who BTW thought the fast twists were idiotic, and I believe was the reason the belted ball was invented with its 2 groove barrel. A large caliber ball could be over twisted and still use a heavy powder charge with some success. Forsythe's ideas on slow twists were surely influenced by Johnson's "Sportsmans Cyclopaedia" 1831 which he references. But he also had personal experience:
"...I once possessed, 13 bore, with a turn in 3ft 6 in., invariably stripped if I gave it the least thing more than 1 3/4 drams:---with that charge is shot splendidly, but the elevation was excessive, the rise is its 100 yards trajectory being about 11", rendering it utterly useless and absurd for sporting purposes, that is, for shooting game in the field."
In this case with this twist, 1:42, I have to wonder if a larger ball or heavier patch (tighter fit) might have been tried to allow a heavier charge of powder but he does not elaborate. The rifling FORM would be on interest too.
It was impossible to make a fast twist heavy game rifle with a short barrel and a 26" (for example) twist. The patch will blow. As a result a lot of Elephant and such were shot with smoothbores. I don't know at what caliber the one turn in the  short barrel becomes a serious detriment to the velocity obtainable. It would require financial outlay I cannot afford to find out. But if someone wants to have a 12 bore barrel cut with a 26" twist for testing I would really like to see the results.

The American rifle, with its longer barrel, and perhaps the longer barreled European rifles, may have had a slower twist since an American rifle with a "4 ft barrel" would have about a 4 ft twist based on the "one turn in the barrel" formula.
This is very good twist for RB rifles up to 54 caliber at least.
But what about rifles with barrels OVER 48"? There are some out there. Did they make a rifling guide with a 5 ft cylinder and one turn in its length and use this for everything? A 48" cylinder would be good for barrels to just under 48".  So to make a 48" barrel the cylinder would have to be longer and its seems to me that it would be easier to lay out one turn in the length than 2 turns or 3/4 turn. But I have never tried it so I am guessing. So if the guide would rifle barrels to 50 inches would it have a 1:55 twist?
Did the European guild system rifles have barrels that were completely finished when they arrived at the gunstocker? A dedicated barrel shop would have room for extra guides not being cluttered up with all those stockmaking tools.
So did the barrel maker have a selection of guides to accommodate the various lengths or did they have something like a sine bar that could be adjusted?

The European rifle used a heavy ball and a short barrel, usually at short range it would seem.  Low velocity makes shots on game past 50-75 yards an exercise in range estimation. The higher velocity American or  rifle with is generally smaller ball, longer barrel, slower twist and higher velocity made hits on game a "aim for the middle and press the trigger exercise to 120 yards or so. This also true of larger bored rifles such as Forsythe used.  This can be extended to 150 plus on vertical targets like people.
So from the twists used it would seem that the Europeans, in general, shot at close range, at least at game and used relatively light charges that with the larger balls gave adequate killing power.

Dan
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Offline Artificer

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2010, 06:33:18 PM »
And can anyone offer evidence that a patched ball can even "strip the grooves" anyway?

Not sure if you are referring to what I wrote earlier of: "Does the fact of using lower powder charges allow those faster twist rates to spin the patched ball without stripping the patch...............?"

Perhaps I didn't get across what I was trying to say that well. 

In our age, we are used to even rather inexpensive dial calipers that can give accurate measurements to .001" or less.  We are used to walking into fabric stores where we can measure the thickness of patching material with a micrometer to even greater accuracy.  So putting together different ball/patch sizes is little to no problem for us.  They didn't have that technology or that variety of materials to give as consistant ball/patch sizes as we have, so I'm not sure how tight the patch to groove fit would have been.

Now, I am NOT an engineer and I could be mistaken about this, so let me say this right off.  I am thinking on how the force of friction increases on the bullet/patch combination gripping the grooves as you make the twist rate faster.  It seems to me the friction would increase when the twist rate is faster.  What I am thinking is if the powder charge is high enough and the fit of the bullet/patch to bore size is tight enough, that the higher friction rate from the faster twist would cause patch failure sooner.  The failure could come from either the patch burning and failing or the patch material could be stripped or blown through at some point around the ball.  The patch blowing through at some point is what I meant by stripping the patch.   Now again, I am not stating this happens, but I'm speculating it from what I've seen when powder charges got too high on rifles I have either loaded or watched other people load when determining their hunting loads.  Using lower powder charges in faster twist barrels would have meant there was not as much friction on the ball/patch to bore size.

It also seems to be supported by the fact that in American rifles, they slowed down the twist rate and used higher powder charges to get flatter trajectory as Dphariss noted.  The slower twist would not have caused as much friction on the ball/patch to rifling friction.

Folks, I admit I'm sort of groping around here and only speculating and I could be completely wrong.
Gus







Offline Stophel

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Re: Original Jaeger rifle twist
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2010, 07:13:30 PM »
I have asked around before, and never gotten an answer when this subject comes up.  All I have ever heard is "American long rifles had slower twists"....but no one has ever offered one single example of any specific rifle and measured the twist rate where I could see.

Again, I only have the one, and it's one turn in about 32".

 ???
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