Author Topic: Underhammer Flintlock (Read 21421 times)

Steve Bookout · « **on:** November 18, 2010, 09:49:52 PM »

I have been considering building another unusual rifle to play with and think underhammers are great rifles to shoot, but really want one in flint. A friend said he had seen just such an animal, so while vacationing in Russia, sent this photo. Not a real great shot due to the flash, but it's good enough to make me feel daunted. Now all I have to do is figure out how the frizzen & pan are arranged. Any of you in the know? Cheers, Bookie

b bogart · « **Reply #1 on:** November 18, 2010, 11:43:12 PM »

Mr Bookie, in the book Underhammers there is two pictures of an underhammer flintlock included. If I can locate them you juyst might get them! I'll look.

Steve Bookout · « **Reply #2 on:** November 19, 2010, 01:55:29 AM »

Bruce.....Fantastic! I was unaware of the book 'Underhammers' and so here's a big thank you for the information. The book has already started it's Siren song beckoning me to find and read it. Cheers, Bookie

Metalshaper · « **Reply #3 on:** November 19, 2010, 02:06:53 AM »

Does this help?? original of German origins, if I'm not mistaken.

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #4 on:** November 19, 2010, 02:23:27 AM »

When shooting this gun offhand, wear flame retardant sleeves. It might make a better bench gun design.

Tom

Dphariss · « **Reply #5 on:** November 19, 2010, 02:39:04 AM »

These strike me as being one offs done by gunsmiths to attract attention.
A "lookee what I made thing" to show to the guild perhaps.
I don't see them as practical firearms.
The underhammer percussion, for general, use is marginal enough.

Dan

axelp · « **Reply #6 on:** November 19, 2010, 02:56:01 AM »

Underhammers are pretty cool. I have had my eyes on them ever since I saw one that Brent Gurtek made... It was in perc. though. They just scream 1840s New England and also California Gold Rush--at least to me. A flint underhammer might have a few practical drawbacks, like burning sleaves, maybe.

K

b bogart · « **Reply #7 on:** November 19, 2010, 04:18:36 AM »

Yep Jonathan thats the one! Pretty interesting. Hey The Bookster has been known to shoot chunk, is that what your thinking Bookie?

That would be extra for style points

Fullstock longrifle · « **Reply #8 on:** November 19, 2010, 04:24:26 AM »

This maybe a dumb question, but here it goes anyhow. What keeps the powder in the flash pan from simply dumping out when fired, and even if it burns, it would be burning in mid air. Unless your really bored, and just want to build a novelty item, why?

smokinbuck · « **Reply #9 on:** November 19, 2010, 04:38:51 AM »

One of the fellows that shoots with us built an underhammer flint. The big problem, as stated, is getting burned when it goes off. As to the powder falling out of the pan when the hammer hits the frizzen, I don't know, the darn thing goes off more often than not. How he did it I don't know. I'm building one right now but I'm sticking with percussion.
Mark

b bogart · « **Reply #10 on:** November 19, 2010, 04:59:49 AM »

The name of the book is "The Pictorial History of the Underhammer Gun". Author is Herschel C Logan

It is interesting Bookie!

bama · « **Reply #11 on:** November 19, 2010, 05:59:34 AM »

I am sure the thought process for the underhammer flint was the same as the underhammer cap gun. You don't get the downward force that is created by the falling cock which in turn should enable the shooter to better hold on target. With the vent pointed down I can sure see it being an arm burner. One design that I have seen that is interesting is an inline flint. I saw a picture somewhere of an early design but don't recall where it was. I would think that this design would be fun to play with.

Metalshaper · « **Reply #12 on:** November 19, 2010, 06:16:15 AM »

Quote from: Fullstock on November 19, 2010, 04:24:26 AM

This maybe a dumb question, but here it goes anyhow. What keeps the powder in the flash pan from simply dumping out when fired, and even if it burns, it would be burning in mid air. Unless your really bored, and just want to build a novelty item, why?

Newton's first law of motion. an object at rest, remains at rest, until acted on by an outside/secondary force.

the idea is thought of as working something like this??

The powder is sitting on the top of the frizzen ( in reality the underside of the frizzen as we normally think of it) when the flint strikes and the frizzen/cover moves, for a few micro-seconds the powder is still hanging there in mid air..or is barely starting to separate and fall. the rest of it happens like usual

if it misfires, you will obviously have to re-prime ?

When I exchanged a few e-mails with Wade Ingrahm, he said if they are properly tuned just like any lock they a remarkably fast and reliable!

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

Metalshaper · « **Reply #13 on:** November 19, 2010, 06:21:16 AM »

One of Wade Ingrahm's 'Target" pistols.

Leatherbelly · « **Reply #14 on:** November 19, 2010, 08:37:15 AM »

Load and prime your regular Flinter ,turn it over and pull the trigger. Betcha it goes off!

Michael · « **Reply #15 on:** November 19, 2010, 03:09:34 PM »

I second Leatherbelly. I demonstrate it often at the 'dog and pony's' our reenacting group does to dispel the myth that flintlocks are unreliable and slow to fire.

Larry Pletcher · « **Reply #16 on:** November 19, 2010, 03:39:33 PM »

I have slow motion video of a Siler firing up-side-down. Without timing it, it appears to be at least as fast. Falling powder is no problem. It has enough time to fall only a mm or so before igniting. It's possible that it might be faster as the sparks have a slightly shorter distance to travel to hit the prime.

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/ultra-high-speed-flintlock-movie.php

There are 2 streams of video on this page. The second has the up-side-down Siler along with a rifle filmed from near the muzzle at 15,000 frames/second. Watch carefully and you can see the ball and patch separate. Your first thought is that it was a hang-fire. It was NOT; I fired the gun. It felt just like normal.

(Bookie, I have a couple of other photos I'll try to fine.)

Regards,
Pletch

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #17 on:** November 19, 2010, 04:00:55 PM »

You might get a cloud of priming powder mixing with sparks. Seems like ideal ignition environment.

BrentD · « **Reply #18 on:** November 19, 2010, 04:15:09 PM »

Those are great photos Larry, I'm amazed at how long the pan ignition takes. That the frizzen is on its second or third rebound before the pan really lets go surprises me anyway. And the maincharge ignition seems to be a fair be behind that even. I find it hard to believe that a percussion rifle would not cut that delay in half. But, of course, it is hard to judge in such slow motion.

Brent
PS. I know a bunch of guys that would like to see paper patched bullets leave the muzzle like your patched roundball photos.

Lucky R A · « **Reply #19 on:** November 19, 2010, 04:23:33 PM »

Novelty yes, but if it was that good all our flint cocks would be striking up rather than down---just seems like one outta take advantage of the law of gravity...Now I am getting opinionated!

Fullstock longrifle · « **Reply #20 on:** November 19, 2010, 04:46:42 PM »

Well you learn something new every day, if it works, go for it.

But if it's as reliable as a standard flintlock, I bet you would have seen a lot more of them in use during the flint period.

axelp · « **Reply #21 on:** November 19, 2010, 04:56:52 PM »

I have shot my flintlock upsidedown a few times and it works fine that way. I am not sure that all technology evolves with what works best. I would propose that ofttimes humans tend to travel more where others have traveled--in terms of trends and practical tools, fashion etc... we seem to be a "pack/herd" animal.

K

Larry Pletcher · « **Reply #22 on:** November 19, 2010, 05:29:23 PM »

Quote from: BrentD on November 19, 2010, 04:15:09 PM

Those are great photos Larry, I'm amazed at how long the pan ignition takes. That the frizzen is on its second or third rebound before the pan really lets go surprises me anyway. And the main charge ignition seems to be a fair be behind that even. I find it hard to believe that a percussion rifle would not cut that delay in half. But, of course, it is hard to judge in such slow motion.

Brent
PS. I know a bunch of guys that would like to see paper patched bullets leave the muzzle like your patched roundball photos.

Brent,
When I first started working in this my first goal was to do a still photo of a paper patch separating from the bullet . This has even tougher problems - like catching the 540 gr bullet in my garage. I ended up getting good still pics of a cloth patch bullet but that's in a different topic and web page.
( http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/black-powder-photography.php )

Here's another link that contains slow motion video from 2009 Friendship. At the bottom are films of my old Siler up-side-down firing Null B and also Goex Cannon grade. Even the Goex cannon ignited before it fell too far.

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/new-high-speed-video-from-friendship-09.php

Somewhere in the 2009 footage I have a percussion for comparison. You can see a big difference.

Regards,
Pletch

BrentD · « **Reply #23 on:** November 19, 2010, 05:43:15 PM »

Larry,
Hanging out in your garage seems to be a rather interesting and educational past time. You do cool stuff.

Catching a paper patched bullet in your garage would not be too difficult with a sawdust box. But the smoke might get to be a bit much.

BTW, what the heck is Swiss Null B? I use Goex 4f for prime in my flinter, but I wouldn't call it "fast".

Brent

Metalshaper · « **Reply #24 on:** November 19, 2010, 05:52:15 PM »

Pletch,

Noticed in the upside down high speed Null B vs cannon grade..

that the Null B flash is complete and if you look at the counter underneath..no grains are evident by my eye?? look, when the cannon grade is used. some of the larger/heavier grains can be seen bouncing around the counter top, nearing the end of ignition. if I'm not mistaken??

Cool Vids,, and something to think about while I finish up designing my Flint UH lock. < just because I can

>

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan
aka Dagwood

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Author Topic: Underhammer Flintlock (Read 21421 times)

Leatherbelly

Michael