paper patch bullet photo

[Larry Pletcher]

When I set up for a shot like this the gun is obviously benched.  the load is chosen to get as close to 1000 fps as possible to help "find" the bullet in the air - .001 sec = 1 foot.  The plane of the bullet's path must be located carefully to locate an infra red beam for it to break.  There are a number of tricks that can help here - it just takes time and trial and error.

With patched ball shots I extended a ramrod out of the barrel and positioned the IR beam to be broken by the rod end.  The camera was aimed at the rod. 

Swiss Powder would be used instead of Goex because Swiss charcoal is more finely ground, eliminating sparks which interfere with the shot.

When all is correctly aligned,  the camera settings checked, the shooter aims the rifle and signals he is ready.  The lights are turned off the camera shutter opened for a brief period (3-4 seconds).  The shooter fires, camera shutter closes, and lights turned back on.   We look at the photo and make corrections and try again.

If the patch is still on the bullet, we move the shooting bench back and try again.  By adjusting the bench, we continue until we see the patch separate.   

If I were to try this with a 540 gr bullet I would want to see the bullet stopped in outside tests before moving inside.  My neighbors still think I'm a nice guy.

Regards,
Pletch

[BrentD]

Larry, if you wish, I can provide the details of my sawdust box.  It's a royal PITA but it sure works.  I have worried about a bullet deciding to go off-course halfway though and exiting the side of the box but I have never had this happen, nor has anyone else that I know of.  But it is something I wonder about....

I'd bring it over if only your garage wasn't so far from mine. 

[westerner]

I'm a little confused Pletch. Is your post part of a previous thread on bullet pics?  Where do I find the photo you speak of? Or the other thread.  Link?

Indoors??

              Joe.  

[Daryl]

Yeah?

For a bullet box for indoor load testing, I used a 4" inside diameter, square steel tube with 1/4" walls.  The tube was 3 feet long and filled to within 3" of the top with sand.  I need only to be perhaps 2' long.  I stuffed rags into the top, then tied heavy truck inner tube of the entrance - 2 layers.  I've tested everything from my gopher guns to elephant rifles in the basement when load developing, with nary a problem. Oh yeah - wear ear phone-type ear protection. Plugs + ear phones is not out of line.

[bob in the woods]

Yes........and don't forget to warn your wife upsstairs before you touch one off!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Larry Pletcher]

I'm a little confused Pletch. Is your post part of a previous thread on bullet pics?  Where do I find the photo you speak of? Or the other thread.  Link?
             Joe.  

Here are the links:

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/black-powder-photography.php

  Above is still shots of a patch separating from ball.  The two below are slow motion stuff- different locks, powder, right side up, up side down, etc


http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/ultra-high-speed-flintlock-movie.php

http://www.blackpowdermag.com/featured-articles/new-high-speed-video-from-friendship-09.php

Daryl, Bob, Brent,
I'm open to any and all suggestions.  If I pick the day you wana drive over and help?  Seriously we all live much to far away from each other.

We do use ear protection.  On this inside stuff plugs inside muffs isn't too much.

Until this morning I hadn't thought a lot about doing this paper patch thing.  It's beginning to sound more doable.  Gotta think on this some more.

Regards,
Pletch

[BrentD]

Well, long ago when you suggested the idea, I figured, like you were thinking in the patched ball experiments - the smoke will get ya.  But maybe not.  Your experiences with the ball and the sparks makes me think that you might be able to get it nailed down. If you did, I could think of a series of things to try (different paper weights being the primary, along with wet vs dry patching, and others).  Let me know what I can do to help - Got stuff!   

[Larry Pletcher]

Brent,
Since you mention things to try, I'm still using the Gunn/Danielson bullet from a Corbin die.  That still your bullet of choice?

Regards,
Pletch

[BrentD]

Larry,
I sold that set of dies and have moved on to a different nose that I dreamed up all on my own.  It has shot much better, especially at the longest ranges.  The GD did well, but not great and occasionally it would really fall apart for some reason.  So, now I'm using a Prolate nose for the pure mathematical elegance of it.  And !@*%&@ if it doesn't work well.  It has a much longer and pointier nose so it is light for its length. 

Brent

[Larry Pletcher]

Do you have a pic or diagram of the bullet?
Regards,
Pletch

[BrentD]

More later if you are really interested but quickly, here are some photos and a drawing with some dimensions.  The overall length of the drawing is less than the photoed version.  The drawing will give about 515 grs in 16:1.  The photo is longer and weighs about 534 gr



http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/Bullets/45%20elliptical%20bullet.pdf

[Larry Pletcher]

Cool looking bullet.  I'm guessing the mold is to cast cores and that you swage the bullets.  Did Richard C. make dies?

Regards,
Pletch

[BrentD]

Well, to be honest, I have almost completely given up swaging. I only swage hunting and short range target bullets. 

dies for this bullet would be somewhat problematic.  I want a true tangent ogive and I want a true elliptical nose.  That combination just doesn't lend itself to modern swaging dies.   I don't like the way the ejector pin gives me a flat spot on the nose and generally some other imperfections and the only way around that is to have a tip forming die that will cause a shoulder at the ogive. 

So, now I shoot cast bullets.  And darned if they don't work pretty well.  Faster to make too.  At least for me. 

Brent

[Daryl]

That is a great looking match bullet, Brent.  Quite elegant and must have a very high BC.  Like to try some in my .45/60Sharps, but for now, I'll plug away with the old #457525 and the Schmitzer 506gr. that I have.   Both are shooting sub MOA at 100 meters, my only testing so far - and now winter's upon us,  minus 20 again! Too many projects, not enough time. 
As you can see, my mind is easily distracted from whatever it was attached to 15 min. ago - can't remember what that was - can't take my eyes (nor mind) off that bullet of yours.  One of these days. I'll try some PP in the rifle.

[Bentflint]

I want a true tangent ogive and I want a true elliptical nose.  That combination just doesn't lend itself to modern swaging dies.   I don't like the way the ejector pin gives me a flat spot on the nose and generally some other imperfections and the only way around that is to have a tip forming die that will cause a shoulder at the ogive.

 

Me too. That can be dealt with. I use epoxy in the ejector or top punch. If you push a bullet into the epoxy and let it dry you will have a punch that pushes bullets out without the flat nose.

Bruce

[Dphariss]

Well, to be honest, I have almost completely given up swaging. I only swage hunting and short range target bullets. 

dies for this bullet would be somewhat problematic.  I want a true tangent ogive and I want a true elliptical nose.  That combination just doesn't lend itself to modern swaging dies.   I don't like the way the ejector pin gives me a flat spot on the nose and generally some other imperfections and the only way around that is to have a tip forming die that will cause a shoulder at the ogive. 

So, now I shoot cast bullets.  And darned if they don't work pretty well.  Faster to make too.  At least for me. 

Brent

If weighted to 1 grain or less per lot the cast will shoot OK.
I wonder if Sharps originally swaged their own slugs or contracted it. Be nice to find that stuff in some forgotten tool room.
 
The original 45 cal LR bullet was a good design but I can't find the photo. Nose shape much like this bullet.

Dan

[Daryl]

Dan - my book "Firearms of the American West 1865-1895" notes that Sharps PP ammo was loaded with swaged bullets.

[BrentD]

Bruce,
I haven't tried it but I cannot imagine how epoxy will hold up to swaging.  I have used your technique for bullet seatind dies and lubesizer dies, but never in a $300-400 set of swaging dies.

In the end, I like the cast bullets so I'm good.  In shooting The Grand, they are not my limiting factor, that's for sure. 

Brent

[bob in the woods]

I have a PP mold for my 45 2.6 Sharps ,made by Ballard in Montana. 540 gr and the shape of the original Sharps bullets. I sort them into boxes , within 1 grain, and they shoot very well at 1000 yds. The Lyman Postell cast is my usual bullet, as it shoots equally well with 1/2 the work. The PP bullet is my standard for the 1/18 twist .45 flintlock rifle I have. With it's false muzzle, the bullet loads with very little effort, so I don't believe the nose is deformed in the process. I keep separate boxes of 539, 540, 541 bullets so the loads used on the range at any given time are the same.  Using this system ,I no longer see an advantage in swaging.

[Dphariss]

Dan - my book "Firearms of the American West 1865-1895" notes that Sharps PP ammo was loaded with swaged bullets.

I have some original bullets 45s in 290-420-550 and the Special LR (much harder alloy) and yes they are all swaged and all are tapered as well. I was just wondering if they swaged them or farmed it out to some supplier.
Bridgeport Gun Implement made a lot of stuff for Sharps.
I have a WRA  40-70-330 SS that is also tapered and swaged.
The 45s other than the 420 are RN or streamlined RN for the LR. The 40 has a flat point and my original mallet swage is for a flatpoint as well. The mallet swages were used to bring the cast bullets the moulds made to the right form.

Dan