early inline ignition flintlock

[Captchee]

 In the  under hammer  topic  the subject was raised about early inline ignition flintlocks .
 I have built (1) of these many years ago . So I thought I would  make a new thread  concerning that system  so as not to disrupt the  under hammer thread .
so im posting this  so as to help out another poster in  the underhammer thread

 Let me start by saying that there are many different  opinions on what   qualifies as a inline ignition. Some folks accept  items like box locks  like the Nock  pistols . Others do not .
 When I built the rifle I used an early design  that imo was a true inline ignition .
 IE the  complete ignition was  to be inline with the barrel  not stricking down as with  box locks .

  Back ground on this  was that I became intrigued by a photo of a Spanish SXS   flintlock with a plunger system, that was profiled  in one of Pope’s writings  and dated 1710 .
 No schematics were provided on that piece only a photo

  After some digging I was able to come up with some  basic drawing   which I used to  make the lock . While  I  thought then  this system was a novelty . I  wanted to see for myself  as to just how reliable , functional  not to mention practical  the system would have been

  Now to most  us the  issues with this system should be obvious . To others it may not . So ill p post the issues I found
1) reliability is extremely poo
2) as can be seen in the drawings .. Upon firing the sights become completely un usable  as the frizzen completely blocks them .
3)  the flint is  extremely hard to maintain  .  Within a few shots  it requires adjustment
Knapping the flint  was impossible without taking it out of the rifle .
4)  as you can see by the drawings . The ignition flash comes right back at the shooters face . Now much of this  blast is blocked .  However it is rather unnerving and isn’t pleasant to shoot .
  The majority of the flash goes into the lock itself .  With very little shooting the  fouling would build up  and the gun needed disassembly  and cleaning .

 Over all a very ,VERY poor application for a flintlock ignition .
 That being said I do believe it  to be a design that was far ahead of its time . One that would become much more reliable  with the advent of the percussion cap and cartridge evolution

 Ill however throw these photos  which I still have on hand  for those interested .

SXS metioned in Popes  writings

[Steve Bookout]

Captchee, Thanks for the photos.  Back about 73 or so, I picked up a Hall for a little bit of nothing.  Until your photos, I never associated it with an "inline" at all.  You have shown us some beautiful and interesting firearms.  Thanks!  Cheers, Bookie

[Acer Saccharum]

So much for keeping your eye on the sights for following thru on the shot!

Tom

[bama]

Yes great photo's and thanks for showing them.

The design that I had in mind would not have a flip up frizen as those pictured. The frizen wound be under the flint with the flint pointed slightly downward and hopefully pushing the sparks toward the touchole. I would have a flip up lid to prime the gun but this would be locked in place before firing. There would also be a vent to the side to allow the gasses to excape. The biggest problem I see with type of system would be fowling getting into the works. The firing mechanism would have to be removable to allow for a good cleaning. Flint asjustment could be made automatic by a spring pressure system that would advance the flint forward as it wore down similar to the flint in a cig. lighter.

[Captchee]

So much for keeping your eye on the sights for following thru on the shot!

Tom

 thats an understatment tom LOL

[kentucky bucky]

It always struck me how with all the workmanship, skilled artist, and inventing going on for so much of the 18th Century and first half of the 19th Century, why did it take so long to come up with metallic cartridges..They "re-invented the wheel" in so many ways, it seems would have been easy to make the leap as far as the skills needed. I guess it would have taken somebody to think way outside the box it that era. I guess it's alot easier to see something from the standpoint of history and not so easy if you were actually from that period.

[Captchee]

Cartridge evolution goes way back to. the problem is that it was expensive.
 There is a number of  documented  flint lock cartridges

[Kermit]

Does Toby Bridges know about these? 

[Captchee]

Does Toby Bridges know about these?  

LMAO Kermit . now ill need electric shock theropy  just to get the spots out from infront of my eyes

 Ok I messed up .   I got the basic info on the SXS all screwed up . Its not in one of Popes writings it was in  one of Lindsay’s writings  published back in 1967

 Here is what the photo says:





 Double barreled flintlock shotgun .
Tortoise shell veneered stock with silver inlay .
Bolt action enclosed locks .
 Made in Regensburg or Prague C,1715-21
 Possibly by Paczelt .
Loa 54 ˝ “,bbls 31 ˝, 22 gauge
No 13/589, Bayerisches National museum , Muniich

[Bill Brockway]

Captchee  -

Another important addition to the body of work you have produced in reproducing early shotguns.  I have  watched in admiration as you built an impressive  number of flint and percussion doubles, mostly from scratch, all tracing the history of shotgun mechanics.  This is a fitting addition to all that research and work. 

Maybe I'm missing something, but which of the photos is the in-line built by yourself (or is that one shown?).  Could it be the 3d photo from the top?  I mention this one because it seems to have Faux grain on the barrel extension at the breech, which very closely mimics some types of damascus grain.

Some time ago, I wrote an article for Muzzle Blasts on in-line muzzle loaders.  We got a lot of static at the time on what constituted a "real" in-line.  There were photos and drawings from 6 or 7 examples, chosen from museums and royal collections, all over Europe.  I have forgotten which issue this was (and I'm too lazy to look it up).

This is a subject which has intrigued me for some time, and I thank you for adding to our store of knowledge on the subject,

Bill

[Captchee]

Thank you Mr Brockway  for you kind words .
 The one I built is not shown .
 I built it back 1983?? Maybe 84
  In reality it was more a  test platform then a finished for sale piece  .
 I basically never went past  what would be considered an in the white piece today
 The actual locks  I built off of the above tower of London  drawing .
  Instead of using a cocking trigger , I ran a cocking lever out the side  . These were directly attached to the bolt  not to a  slide plate as shown in the photo of the SXS Lindsay  published
  I was actually more  interested in the functional  and practical application  then actually  completely recreating  a finished piece .

. The 3rd photo is of an original that I ran across  .  Its also notable that this  was converted to cap .  If one looks closely   it can bee seen that the striker plate has been removed from the frizzen and a nipple is clearly visible in the breech plug .. It also seemed to have been cocked either with a key  like a wheel lock  or a crank type lever that had long since  disappeared .
As a Note . A few years back I saw a flintlock rifle very close to the one I posted “cocking mechanism was different “  up for sale on  gun broker . I nearly bid on it   but I figured it would go for more then I could afford. After the auction had ended I saw that it sold for less then 500.00  .
so they do come up on the auction sites now and then

As to the  faux patterns on the barrel. The lock section  pattern as near  I was able to  tell  was done   prior to fire bluing . Possibly with some type of    pen application  . Possibly even  an application like potters do with adding hair to the firing process . Im not sure  as I have not been able to duplicate it .
As a note though Derringer was known for  such barrel patterns  which he  was able to do in yellows and reds . But again I have not discovered how   he did it either  .
 The nearest I have came was a later  19th century  Faux twist patterns using different bluing compounds
 Which achieve this  type  pattern on modern barrel steels

 Its also notable that this process was  outlawed   in many countries by the end of the 19th century  when even many of the more complex  Damascus patterns   were being reproduced  as faux  work   being imported to the US.
 I have been told that    the patterns were achieved by use of repeating wheels  being coated in a acid solution . But as one tries to dig deeper into that information , the discussions normally dry up very quickly.
So either the subject is still very guarded by those who know  the information  or the information has been either somewhat or completely lost  

 But back to the in-inline ignition subject .
  What is and is not an true inline ignition seems to very greatly . Some folks accept  the definition to mean any  ignition system which achieves  main charge ignition, center of the breech plug  thus inline with the bore . Still others only accept an ignition type which is fully inline with   the bore .
  The later being a far more strict definition which excludes many of the box  lock designs like those built by Nock  or the rifles made by Hall . IE  providing a flash channel directing ignition center of the bore


 Thus I became more interested  back then with what I felt was an undisputed inline design ..
At one time I had far ,far  more information of this subject  but through the years  its been reduced to basically what you see above . A few photos and  experiences with the one I  built ..

But there should be no doubt that such ignitions did exist  though in very low numbers and IMO most probably morphed into  cartridge bolt actions  where the  design is best suited

  Doc white has  information that parallels  some of the information i compiled through the years , over on his web site  as well as a single barreled version of the sxs that I posted above  which is also in the  Munich National Museum.
 Infact  to tell the truth  he may have gotten some of his information from your writings as well . Cant say . He does use his own words

 Doc also has built a number of  inline designs . But most are either not completely functional  in the true since  or are  along the lines of those built by Pauley.

 He however doesn’t mention ever building a flintlock model .
LMAO  if he had , im sure he would  be saying the same thing I did .
 Its just not something a person wants to shoot much  or IMO could get used to shooting