Patch material

[David Fox]

I apologize for what may seem a rudimentary question. I don't get out to shoot as often as I'd like and thus experimentation opportunity is limited. I'm presently shooting three round ball rifles: an 1840-'50 Carlisle-made long rifle in nominal .45 calibre, a .54 Mississippi M.1841 lined by Hoyt, and a Indiana-Ohio style half-stock in nominal .32. In all three patches of well-washed pillow ticking and well worn denim make a fit too tight with the balls for which I have moulds. These balls, naked, roll slowly down the bores. Oxford shirting is a tad loose and is badly torn on firing from all three rifles. Can anyone suggest a useful cloth tough enough to stay intact which falls between ticking and shirt Oxford in thickness?  Thanks.

[BrownBear]

I'm real impressed with the muslin I got from JoAnns.  I got a couple of thin ones, and they're surprisingly tough.  I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but IIRC they miked .010 and .012.  They're certainly tougher than any commercial prelubes I've tried.  Best news, the muslin is even cheaper than ticking.

[Leatherbelly]

Actual ball size would help judge the patch thickness.I like washed new denim.

[bgf]

I've also tried various thicknesses of cotton muslin as sold by Walmart, and they do work, though not as well as my standard ticking for accuracy, but the really thin ones will blow out; I've been intending to try denim, but haven't gotten around to it.  One thing you might want to look at is whether you could ease loading a thicker patch/bigger ball combinations by working on the muzzle a little bit.  Also, check with other shooters around you to see if their balls load better with a thicker patch and shoot well -- most people I know would give you enough to test.

[Daryl]

David- if you use calipers to measure cloth, Denim, that is 100% cotton denim is available from abourt .012" to .030" thick. some makers of denim use per ounce weights, ie: 6oz., 8oz., 10oz. and 12 oz.  I have not seem any 14oz. as the 12oz. seems to be the thickest denim used in very heavy trousers and jackets.

Which to use depends entirely as LB says, on the ball size.  You should know the bore size, groove depth and ball size. If not groove depth, then at least ball size and bore size.

I have found best results when the cloth is double, ie: twice the thickness that the grooves are deep. With normal .010" to .012" rifling, I like .0215" to .025" in ticking or denim.  This is for use with a ball that is .005" smaller than the bore.   With .010" balls, I like to use thicker patching yet.

With a nicely raduised crown, it is not difficult to load.  My daughter and wife Tracy, have no difficulty loading a .022" denim patch with a .445" ball in Tracy's .45 GM barrel that has a .450" bore. There is never a need to wipe the bore during a day's shooting as each time it's loaded, the bore gets wiped. The fouling  cannot build up from shot to shot & stays the same, all day.

Rougher bores can be difficult at times, but usually benefit from thicker cloth with smaller balls, ie: .010" smaller, with a .025" to .030" patch in .010' to .012" rifling.

Denim must be washed before being used. I usually run it through the washing cycle twice to make sure I get all the sizing out.  I measure cloth after it's been washed as sizing can scew the reading.

[David Fox]

Thanks, fellas. Problem with getting too cute with choosing ball size for me is ready availability of moulds. I'm reduced to adjusting patch thickness to accomodate the ball size. The too-thick denim and ticking mic'ed .05 for me. Today, based on your input I hied me down to a fabric store and bought a length of the thinnest denim they had. It mic'ed .04. After I get it washed I'll try it. Being thinner, the patching should allow easier loading. A concern is whether the material will stand up to firing w/o being torn or cut. In all three rifles, the problem isn't starting the ball...I use a short starter...but all the way down. I rather like using the weapons' own rammers and they aren't handy for loading too-tight patched projectiles, especially those last couple inches.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I think you might need to have a quick lesson in reading the micrometer.  I doubt if the cloth is .05" thick or even .04".  Heavy blue jean material is around .030" and it's good for a .735" ball in a .77 bore, and that's about all. 

[LynnC]

0.04 and 0.05 mm?

[David Fox]

There's not much in life I couldn't use lessions in, including, I suppose, reading a micrometer. Indeed, the readings above are in millimeters. Should have made that clear. I never recovered from a hitch in the Army nor, Lord help us, Carter's metric campaign.

[LynnC]

What's a mm - something like .039 inch? We can figure it from there

Still mot quite right
.04mm equals abt .00156", less than 2 thousandths.  Pretty thin. Must be 0.4mm - about .016" and 0.5mm - almost .020.  That's more like it......Lynn

[LynnC]

Ok what is?
Bore dia.
Ball dia.
Balls pure lead or ww?
Lube your using?

[Daryl]

They are all important questions, David.

BTW- .020" is not very thick, but where most poeple have trouble, is the crown is too sharp and cuts the patch as it pushes up ridges of lead.  If it's smoothly radiused, the lead moves easily with the cloth fomring into the grooves and lands without cutting. Combinations that actually seal the pressure behind and shoot very cleanly are easily loaded.

[rick landes]

Make sure to use a mic and measure the compressed thickness of the material. The mic is not a C-clamp, but does need a bit of forefinger and thumb pressure.

Also, a dial caliper will not give a good reading

If you think you are getting close and a bit thicker material will help try adding a cigarette paper between the ball and patch. It will kick up the size about .002"
It seems a small amount but it does matter IMHO.

One time I bought a 1/2" yard of some Denim and got it home washed it and then tried it out only to be told by my wife I had bought stretch denim. I can only imagine what burned polyester would be like to get out of the tube!

Like is said...ya just can't fix stupid!

[Daryl]

Rick- I have some stretchy drill, I think it is. There is no poly in it, but a crinkled stitch which gives stretch in one direction.  It is 100& cotton and quite strong.  Burning the material proved no synthetics. While back, when I used dial calipers for measuring, I measured it at .019" thick, compressing the tines between thumb and forfinger while reading the dial.  Using a mic, it mesrues .017", brrrrrrrrrt on the end-ratchet before reading.  I use this material for the .002" oversized balls in my .40 - .398" bore, .400" balls.  It loads very nicely and of course, seals and shoots very cleanly. We also tried it in Taylor's Virginia .50 with rounded rifling by seating a .508" ball down flush, then pulling it backout with the strip ends. The material wasn't cut in the least with the ball nicely swaged to the lands.

All material must be washed, of course.  I wash all new material twice - the first cycle with soap, the next full cycle without.  Most denim loses about .001" or .002" if using a cold wash cycle.  A hot cycle and hot dry might even increase thickness which would be nice.  I guess I really haven't paid much attention to the hot/dry differences - washing stuff really isn't my forte. Usually turn it on and you get what you get.

[George Sutton]

I use pure linen .015. It holds up very well.

Centershot

[Simon]

Centershot, how does that relate to ball size, IE .010 or  .050 under bore ?  I just bought some .015 100% linen to try with some balls that measure .497-498  and are quite hard. When loading a Colerain .50 with round bottom grooves and .018 cotton ticking I have to use a mallet on the short starter.  I am hoping that the linen will load without the mallet. 

Mel

[Roger Fisher]

Centershot, how does that relate to ball size, IE .010 or  .050 under bore ?  I just bought some .015 100% linen to try with some balls that measure .497-498  and are quite hard. When loading a Colerain .50 with round bottom grooves and .018 cotton ticking I have to use a mallet on the short starter.  I am hoping that the linen will load without the mallet. 

Mel

Did you manage to find some tightly woven (thread count high?) or is it loosely woven (which would shred)   The hard lead not good if loading tight...

[Daryl]

I'd try some pure lead balls, signcutter.  The size and patching sounds great.

I'm using a .397" ball with .0215" ticking, .0225" denim with good results in my .398" bore'd .40, however the .400" and .019" is more accurate and loads about the same.

I don't need a mallet - that's what my delicate hands are for.

Much depends on the depth and shape of the rifling & the pressure generated by the load also has a say in the requirements of the combination.

 My .58 (low pressure) shoots well a .570" ball and a mere 100gr. 2f, with the .0225" (.025" with calipers) denim patching - in .008" rifling, however the .40, ie: high pressure with 60gr. 3F needs the larger ball with the same patch in .010" rilfing. In the .40, the ball is only .001" smaller than the bore, yet it loads easily with the rifle's rod once started with the nub on the starter and a smack of the plam.

[bgf]

The other day, I got a chance to try some .500's and .498's in my .50 cal. with a .018 (or so) ticking patch and they loaded just like .495's, no mallet needed, just a thwack on the short starter.  Next I need to find the thicker denim, then see just what I can load, although I'm dreading the necessary bench time to assess accuracy differences.  Daryl's trick of smoothing up the crown makes all the difference.

[Leatherbelly]

Amen!

[Simon]

Centershot, how does that relate to ball size, IE .010 or  .050 under bore ?  I just bought some .015 100% linen to try with some balls that measure .497-498  and are quite hard. When loading a Colerain .50 with round bottom grooves and .018 cotton ticking I have to use a mallet on the short starter.  I am hoping that the linen will load without the mallet. 

Mel

Did you manage to find some tightly woven (thread count high?) or is it loosely woven (which would shred)   The hard lead not good if loading tight...

Yes I  bought some tightly woven linen and tried to relive the muzzle, but with the recessed muzzle on the Coleraine  makes it difficult for my big thumb to actually reach the lands and grooves.

[Daryl]

if your thumb end isn't pointy enough to get any depth into the muzzle, use a tapered round object, like a tapered stone for use with a hand drill.  I've use these for years to assist in the smaller calibres.

[tpr-tru]

Daryl,   with your tight patch/ball combo without hammering,  do you use precut or cut at the muzzle?  And this with
WWS/neetsfoot mix?

[Dphariss]

I have a pair of GM 50 barrels that load so easy with .018 and a .495 that I am sure a .500 will go in easily with a starter.

Dan

[George Sutton]

The bore measures .581 groove to groove probably add another .020 or .030 for the lands. the ball measures.562 and the pure linen patch measures .016 dry. I use spit for lube. The linen is fairly tight weave although you can see light through it. The linen holds up well with no shredding or blow through. I can thumb start the ball and push it home with thr ramrod. It shoots just as well or better than a very tight patch ball combo. I cut the patch on the muzzle.

Centershot