Broke my ramrod off in barrel while cleaning/STUCK

[eyeprose]

As the subject says, I was cleaning my fathers old .45cal longrifle when the rag on the ramrod became stuck at the very bottom of the barrel. ( poor cleaning previously ) My gunsmith said he is out of ideas as he has tried pistol powder and says the pressure escapes around the rag and rod ( a good thing ) and he has tried to grip the broken section further breaking the already broken ramrod. So, any ideas gents? Thanks so much.

[BrentD]

Pull the breech plug and push it out.  I would guess you have a fouling ring in there and that is what you are hung on so you might try flooding with something like WD40 or Hoppies before you try pulling the plug.

If you gunsmith has already given up, you need a new smith.

Brent

[roundball]

As the subject says, I was cleaning my fathers old .45cal longrifle when the rag on the ramrod became stuck at the very bottom of the barrel. ( poor cleaning previously ) My gunsmith said he is out of ideas as he has tried pistol powder and says the pressure escapes around the rag and rod ( a good thing ) and he has tried to grip the broken section further breaking the already broken ramrod. So, any ideas gents? Thanks so much.

Another alternative which is actually very straight forward and works fine as I've personally done it to remove a stuck bore brush, is the "grease gun" method.

Remove the vent liner, cut a couple dozen tiny 1/4" squares of pillow ticking or something like that...pack them well into the breechplug to make a "dam" below the obstruction.

Get a grease fitting from the local auto parts store to match your threads...ie: 1/4x28", etc...(usually a  blisterpac with several different thread sizes).
Connect up a grease gun and simply pump it out...nothing stronger than hydraulics.

When done, gently push a patch or two all the way back down bore to ooze all the grease back out of the vent, then clean the barrel as you would if you'd just returned from a shoot.

[alex e.]

What Brent said..

[Dphariss]

If its pitted to the point that it grabs a patch its probably been shot with synthetic powder and may be pitted to the point that patch is locked in pretty solid. So unbreech and push the busted piece out the breech if it will.
Best idea is to replace the barrel.

Dan

[Birddog6]

You didn't say what type of barrel or gun it is.  If it has a standard flat breechplug, you may be able to take the vent liner out & see the jag, then take a small tool & push it forward. Also I would spray it full of penetrating oil from both sides of the obstruction. More lubrication is best.

If ya can't push it forward to where you can get a hold on the RR, then I would try the grease gun method.  Screw in a zerk fitting of proper thread into the vent liner hole & go from there.  If you have a auto service center with a air operated grease gun, it will push that sucker out lickety-split !

If all else fails, then pull the breechplug & push it out.

Keith Lisle

PS:  If you have a gunsmith pull the breechplug, it would be best he is a gunsmith that has worked on LOTS of traditional ML rifles.  A modern gunsmith may make more of a mess than you have, simply because he doesn't know how to work on it or how it is put together,  Especially if it has a patent breech.

[Captchee]

 I agree that if your gunsmith said he is out of ideas , you need another gunsmith
 I find it real hard to believe that   the jag is stuck hard enough to break the rod . Yet leak so much when pressure is applied that it would not blow out of the barrel .
 Something just doesn’t add up  with that one .
 More then likely he didn’t  put enough powder in to produce more pressure then was being vented back out the flash hole

 Having this happen doesn’t mean  necessarily that you bore  is pitted .
A worn or improperly sized cleaning jag will allow the cleaning patch to cup then wad up. Thus jam the cleaning jag in place  as its  being drawn back out .
 When that happens with a dry patch it’s a real PITA to  get back out .

 

 If it was me . This is what I would do first .

1) take note of how the rod broke. Is it a restively clean break   IE it snapped off right at the brass end . If so then run some penetrating fluid down the bore .  It will soak into and lube the patch . Now take a ball puller and  see if you can screw it into the broken section of rod .
 If not
2)    Take an air hose with  a rubber spray tip . . Press the tip against the flash hole  and hit it with a full  pressure charge  from the compressor .
As birddog alluded to . The oils will soak into the patch and help make a seal .

3)  use the grease method described by  round ball

4) pull the breech and push it out

 I would also agree with birddog .  Many modern center fire gunsmiths have very little knowledge with BP  guns  and thus can do some really funky things 

[eyeprose]

WOW! Really great ideas. I will talk with him tomorrow at length. It is a longrifle barrel of Japanese origin. Browned ( bronzed ) and made in the 80's. I have fired pyrodex in the firearm for just a few rounds. It's life has seen Gorex exclusively previously. The rod siezed as I tried to push past obvious rusting and on the way up...well there was no on the way up. It sits solid at the bottom. Grease gun method was suggested and he had no real clue how to even do it. The air compressor sounds good as well. When he attempted the pistol powder he said the pressure came out the end of the barrel which I felt was a good thing as there is air inbetween the rag and rod  and the barrel.
So thanks for all of the info and when I begin my flintlock this winter I'll look forward to all yer input again.

[bob in the woods]

#1, and I mean right now- get your rifle away from that "gunsmith" !!!!!  Walk away and never go back. #2
You say you used Pyrodex, and you did mention some rust. How long has the barrel been sitting with this contaminated patch?  If a while, I can pretty much state 100% that the barrel is pitted in that area.
I've cleaned Pyrodex barrels 3 times over the course of a week, and had dirty patches every time.
IE  clean till the patch is clean. Put the barrel away for 2 days. Try a patch again and it will come up dirty.
I do not recommend it's use.

[billd]

What do you mean by "Pistol Powder"?

Bill

[Acer Saccharum]

Both shooting the ramrod out with gunpowder or compressed air gives me the willies. No, no, no, no, no! I don't want to read about any eyeless or maimed persons hurt while using black powder. We don't need that kind of press, and you certainly don't need any injuries!

[T*O*F]

Both shooting the ramrod out with gunpowder or compressed air gives me the willies.

Is that all......this whole thread gives me the willies.

After all the recent threads about trying to pull the breechplugs on various imported guns, how can anyone just make a blanket statement to "pull the breechplug."  The perils of giving generic answers to specific problems.

This is further complicated by the fact that he said the gun was made in Japan.  Some of those guns had breechplugs that were pressed in and had no threads.  How would you remove one of them?

[Cody Tetachuk]

Some of those guns had breechplugs that were pressed in and had no threads.  How would you remove one of them?

Heavy charge of smokeless??

[westerner]

[bob in the woods]

I did not give any advice other than that you switch gunsmiths, since, unless you know what you are doing, there are too many variables. Find another gunsmith who is familiar with black powder muzzzleloading firearms. He/she will either fix your problem, or advise you to spend your money on a replacement......which may be the smart choice, considering .  Do you know who manufactured the gun?
I think that the Dixie Gun Works Tennessee rifle with cherry stock was Japanese made, and it was an OK shooter, so not all the Japanese stuff was junk. But then , a good gunsmith will know that.

[ken]

Was the patch dry when you put it down the barrel? If so it can get that stuck. Take it from there , then try to push in some black power through the vent All else fells pull the breech ,remove the vent FIRST

[Rasch Chronicles]

Fellows,
I seem to remember a device made with an empty pistol shell casing that was very close to the bore diameter. You popped the spent primer, drilled a hole through the now empty primer pocket for a screw. The screw was dropped into the mouth of the case, and screwed into the ramrod. teeth were cut into the mouth of the case, and the whole kit and kabootle slid down the bore. This was now turned by hand until it chewed its way through the edges of the ball and patch. I suppose you could do it with any brass tube that was close to bore diameter, and solder or braze it to a handle

As I think back on this, I think I read that in a an old GunDigest book I bought as a boy... that was a while ago...

Best regards,
Albert A Rasch
http://trochronicles.blogspot.com/

[Captchee]

Both shooting the ramrod out with gunpowder or compressed air gives me the willies. No, no, no, no, no! I don't want to read about any eyeless or maimed persons hurt while using black powder. We don't need that kind of press, and you certainly don't need any injuries!

 well then i would point out something here kind sir.
 If we want to discuss liable .

1 ) advising any installation of a breech plug  should also be out   . After all if its done wrong and it blows   who would be liable .
2) information concerning the installation of barrel lugs should also be out . After all we don’t know the barrel material  do we
3) drilling and threading of flash holes liners and drums . Also a very dangerous thing  for someone  not  semi knowledgeable in what they are doing there . Surly  liability would be considered there
4) what about Co2 dischargers .  Is it truly realized the amount of pressure they put out . care to bet that its more then 100psi ?. for that mater how fast the ball leaves the barrel . i can tell you  that i saw the results of  a fella who  put a 50 cal 400 + grain conical through the door of his dodge  at maybe 10 feet  one after noon
So I wonder. If someone uses one  and  pops another person in the head . Are we liable


5) I would also point out that the use of ball pullers  or any device that puts a person in front of the bore  also be  labeled as worrisome  and  not discussed or  brought up  because of liability concerns

6) lets talk a minute about pulling a breech  plug .
 Let say  this fell does pull the plug and re installs it  . But in the main time he stresses the  barrel .  Then the next time he fires  the  barrel becomes compromised .
Surly then we must be liable
 Is Dphariss then liable as a gunsmith . ?


 We have to realize that common sense. Even though its not so common anymore . Has to be applied here .  After all , how many “SCHOOLED “ gunsmiths are actually on this forum  ?
 My hands up   and I know a few other are as well .
 But the  point of the mater is that a very large % of folks here are not

 My point is , with all do respect . If there is worry about blowing a  obstruction  then I submit that  a whole lot of posts on this board be answered  with one post and one sentence ; contact a qualified gunsmith .
 Nothing less and nothing more .

 Case in point . Lets just say a person here . Some time back recommended  to another poster that they  use good quality sharp chisels  for making their gun stock .
 Now we all assume that the person knows what they are doing .
 But on the other end of the computer , that person is actually holding the  wood plank in his lap , while pushing against a tool that’s as sharp as surgical steel . It ends up in his leg
Would you sir be liable  for his  failure in common since ?

 Im just saying  ,,,,,,,, something to think about .

 i would also point out , and this is just my oppenion  and i know it has nothing to do with your warning . but
if this  person here , with the issue at question ,  went to a gunsmith  that said  he had no more ideas .
 Well sir , IMO he has gotten far more correct information here  and in all actuality is probably far safer  then shooting a firearm that  was work on by that so called gun smith .
  With all do respect sir . That is the truly worrisome  issue IMO

 now please dont take this as a challange Acer . its not ment to be that way .
 but frankly i can see no way  for you , me, dan , Don getz , jim chambers  or any other "qualified"  gunsmith  instructing this person how to  remove this obstruction with out  some risk  . it simply cannot be done  unless we say ; see a qualified gunsmith .
scarry , scarry  worrysome thought isnt it .


again something to think on .
 so be safe fellas and have a good night

[frogwalking]

I found a steel rod just smaller than bore diameter at the local hardware.  Made sure of no burs to damage the rifling.  drilled a wood block the size of the rod on my drill press (clamped in place. ) Juggled the rod up from the bottom to drill a small hole in the end of the steel rod.  Soldered a drill bit that is the same diameter s the shank of a 3 inch sheetrockscrew into the hole.  Drilled a hole in the center of the ramrod in the barrel.  Removed the drill bit and replaced with the aforementioned 3 inch sheetrock screw, soldered into the hole in the rod.  screwed screw into ramrod, clamped rod in vice, took good hold on rifle and pulled the entire sucker out.   
You may want to use a brass rod if  you have a really fine barrel, otherwise, the steel one works fine.

This is the redneck way.  As such, it did work, even if some find it kind of peculiar.

May want to do the penetrating oil soak suggested by others first.  I didn't and it still worked.  Hard for it not to come out this way.

Frog.

[Nate McKenzie]

Sounds to me like the cleaning jag might be caught under an inward protruding vent liner [or drum if percussion].  Removal of the liner or drum might free the rod.

[Dphariss]

WOW! Really great ideas. I will talk with him tomorrow at length. It is a longrifle barrel of Japanese origin. Browned ( bronzed ) and made in the 80's. I have fired pyrodex in the firearm for just a few rounds. It's life has seen Gorex exclusively previously. The rod siezed as I tried to push past obvious rusting and on the way up...well there was no on the way up. It sits solid at the bottom. Grease gun method was suggested and he had no real clue how to even do it. The air compressor sounds good as well. When he attempted the pistol powder he said the pressure came out the end of the barrel which I felt was a good thing as there is air inbetween the rag and rod  and the barrel.
So thanks for all of the info and when I begin my flintlock this winter I'll look forward to all yer input again.

If this a 1/2 octagonal barrel by any chance? Is it marked "ultra-hi"?
If so leave it plugged
Some of the 70s-80 Japanese stuff was unbelievably scary.

Dan

[bob in the woods]

All true Captchee, however, based on the original post [ previous poor cleaning ] and what I assume to be the gent's lack of experience in these matters, I was more concerned re his assessment of the piece re overall safety in general. More info would be helpful. Thebarrel was not properly cleaned, but we don't know how long it has been in that state. It was used with Pyrodex, as stated.
The info given here was good IMO, but withonly 2 posts, it's not a certainty that he is even familiar with breachplugs, but this is the best place I know of to get an education.
Too bad he's not closer. I'd ask him over to the shop and take it out myself.
On the other hand, this could just be Divine  intervention preventing the owner from shooting this gun again! It may be better left as is.

[Captchee]

and thats the real point isnt it Bob
 simply put , to often none of us know  basically anything about  the person or the firearm we are giving advise  about .
 case in point . At the time i suggested  using air to blow the   broken rod . the only mention of  rust or pitting was from Dan .
 what he said  can be true . but not always true.
 i have  folks bring me  rifles  that they had broke rods off , for any number of reasons .
 most  i would say  stem from  trying to run to dry a cleaning patch .. others because  no one had ever showed then how to load with a wood rod OR for that mater properly maintain a  wood rod  . Right now out in the shop I have a  54 cal Douglas barrel that a fella brought in . the RR broke right at the  brass   end .
 The story went that  on their first outing  while cleaning  the rifle the jag became stuck about 3 inches from the breech  . The RR broke and they couldn’t get  the rest out  .  
Apparently the rifle was built with an interchangeable barrel . So they swapped out barrels  with the plan of having the jag removed by a gunsmith . Well that never happened  until  a few months ago .  So the barrel has now set for  30 some years .

 I told him the barrel was probably toast .. But  I pulled the plug . Knocked the jack out  and we took a look .
  Sure enough .  Where the jag and patch set the rifling is near  gone . But before and after its still  in  reasonable condition .
Another case . I had a guy bring in a SXS that  barrels looked like a banana .   After some prying   the customer finally came out and told me that he was reading on some forum where  you could torch  blue . So he took a torch to the barrels .
  Yet another case many years back  where a young man and his father came in with a long rifle they were building .  When they called they said they couldn’t get the rear sight to stay in place .
 Well they had cut  nearly through the barrel wall  trying to set a  dovetail rear sight that was way to deep based for their application ..
 but they had read that the  top of the base should be level with the top of the barrel .

 We all assume people will use common since . But sometimes they don’t .

 So in all fairness to Acer I feel I must apologize for my post last night . It  read a little to much on the cranky side  this morning .
 I  took his post to personally. When in fact it was me who assumed the poster  could and would do what I suggested safely
 Ill stand down now LOL  

[Acer Saccharum]

Capt, no harm done on this end, certainly none intended from my perspective.

I must say the written word oft gets interpreted according to the readers' mind set, and sometime quite far from what the writer intended. The writer has a responsibility to write exactly what they mean; even then misinterpretation can place.

I understand your point of writing out very explicit 'how to' instructions on how to do something, yet the results can be unpredictable, even dangerous, entirely dependent on the interpretation of the reader.  The aforementioned sight installed flush with the top flat of the barrel or lugs too deep, thread engagement to shallow, barrel walls too thin, ad nauseam.

Yes, I get the shivers when I read some of these things, and have first hand experience in some dangerous doings, luckily surviving my own stupidity.


Tom

[eyeprose]

Thanks again all. To Dphariss, the barrel was mfg. by Miroku Japan for " ultra-hi ". I appreciate your familiarity. I retrieved my barrel and have done nothing nor would I have done anything to put anyone in harms way, I hear the concern and expected nothing less. Safety first. So if there is anyone near Virginia that has an answer I can make a drive. Good info all, I'll keep ya posted.