patchbox design

[axelp]

http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2010/11/brent-gurtek.html

I designed the patchbox on this Jim Chambers Isaac Haines kit. With help/input from the gunbuilder, I submit it for review and feedback. My intent for the gun was to have it appear as a rather plain gun that a hunter or traveler might contract from a gunbuilder (maybe on short notice?) so the engraving and carving is minimal---a "workhorse" rather than a "showhorse"--if that makes sense.

thanks, Ken

[rick landes]

I reread the text three times and the patch box strikes me as quite fancy and not at all plain. Perhaps to being too much for the rest of the arm.

However, I think it is a great piece of work; the "side saddle" hinge is a nice complement to the roll of the mane on the top.
I cannot say why but I keep thinking the hinge should be at the upper side of the patch box...I think I want to make it an extension of the horse head...into the spine....who knows

I like the under stated elegance of the four piercings divided by the fleur-de-lis (or lily, if you prefer) and the aging is perfect. In fact I think the aging is what will make it work in the "work horse"

The modest grain and color also help convey your desired feel.

I looked at the engraving and thought should there be more...should there be less. I think it is good as is for the piece. I do wish the release button was a bit more subtle; the square stares back from the nice curves IMHO.

Thank you so much for sharing it.

[whitebear]

I have to agree with Rick, instead of getting a plain workhorse, you got a Palomino work horse, bred for work but very showy.  I like the patch box a lot but it should be planer or the remainder of the gun fancier.  Just my 2d.

[A.Merrill]

    Great design, it looks PC .    AL

[axelp]

Thanks everyone. I started with this idea: If I were on my way to Frontier Kentucky and lost my gun, what would I expect to get from a gunsmith in a town I was passing thru? My time is limited, maybe even my funds, so I would need a gun that was almost and "off the rack" gun.  Maybe the gunsmith would take a gun that was in progress, originally intended to be fancy, and quickly complete it so he could fill the order? Does that make sense?

[Tom Currie]

Ken, I really like the idea of scenario you create . I think the PB lid is quite fancy also so it makes sense that this was going to be a fancy gun but was hastily finished , without much carving to match the complexity of the PB, in order to get you back on the trail to Boonesborough as quickly as possible. 

Being a traditionalist, the only comment I would make is that the PB design looks somewhat non traditional for longrifles. I have struggled with this in the past trying to design something that looks traditional yet something I haven't seen in a reference book before. I consider that quite a challenge. That's just my personal taste  though. Overall I think it's a fine gun.

[kaen]

Ken, I have been contemplating a Chambers kit and I was wondering what grade of wood you received with the kit?

[keweenaw]

This is interesting but it doesn't do anything for me.  I've always liked the horsehead patch boxes but this is a bit much.  It's trying to do less with more rather than the more with less that can make some longrifles so elegant.

Tom

[Jim Kibler]

A suggestion I would give is to stretch the design of the lower side panel and perhaps shrink the top a little.  Since the butplate has a curve the length along the lower side of the lid is longer than the top.  It often seems most appealing to stretch the design on the lower panel a touch.  This design is just the opposite.   Doing this will help minimize the big area of brass along the butplate of the lower panel.

[axelp]

FYI- For the Chambers Kit, the wood I requested was plain maple.

Stretching the design to fit the curve/shape is a good suggestion. Do you find that on originals? or is that found more on contemporary work?

I think I understand. There are two perspectives or balances--Art, Historic accuracy/believability. My "hoss" gun seems to have achieved the balance more or less-- but in a significantly different way than what folks are used to seeing. I like it, and feel it is artistically interesting and historically believable-- and since it was for me anyway...

I know this gun is different that what is usually posted here and I appreciate the feedback--- I take it all as constructive. I hope I can do some more designs in the future and improve with every one. As an artist, I have found that Historic Folk Art is one of the hardest things to replicate. I think because the Folk Artist is not burdened by skill or technique or historic believabilty but is very personal and free of formula... Yet in order to replicate it historically speaking, some kind of formula or copying is essential... avoiding over-designing and contrivance is the challenge.

I hope this makes sense,

thank you.

Ken

[Jim Kibler]

Stretching the design to fit the curve/shape is a good suggestion. Do you find that on originals? or is that found more on contemporary work?

Ken

I think you see this sometimes on original work.  It's one of those things that you don't notice until you really look for it. 

[Swampwalker]

To expand somewhat on what J.K. said, it seems like a lot of inlay for a very small narrow box.  I'm also not real keen on the external large square catch - it seems to interupt the flow of the design.  Just my thoughts.  Otherwise, a nice gun.

[Don Getz]

I think Brent Gurtek is the one who should have interrupted you and told you "this is way too fancy".    I would have gone with a rather plain two piece box, would fit in much better with a plain gun.............Don

[axelp]

thanks Don and everyone.

Just have to see how it shoots....

Ken

[whitebear]

[quote
thanks Don and everyone.

Just have to see how it shoots....

Ken
[/quote]

Ken as you say it's your gun and what the rest of us say or think is worth exactly what it cost.  With your ideas on the historical impression it makes more sense.  The design elements, stretching the engraving, using a smaller patchbox release, etc are worthy criticisms.  As you said "Just have to see how it shoots" that's what will tell the difference between soup and hot water.  Good luck, in the future every one will be better than the last one.

[axelp]

oh---Sure there are a few things that I might have done differently, but I like the contrast of the box with the rest of the gun... it does not seem over done to me.

That is the nifty part of folk art--sometimes the best part is in the unorthodox and imperfectly perfect execution. (my opinion) And I wonder if a more complex box lid with the simple stock carving is any less accurate to history than the 100% unadorned but full-furnitured contemporary longrifles one sees being carried? But heck I am no expert!

I appreciate all of the educated, constructive feedback (and yes the next box I design will be better for it) I am not a builder, and never will be, but I am fascinated by longrifle folk art, and strive to understand it, and partake in the re-creation of it.

I have only been a student of the longrifle since 2003, but I have been an artist for 40 years... and I learn new things everyday....

respectfully,

Ken Prather  

[rick landes]

You may find it of use to get the annuals of the Penn. Dutch Historical Society (I think that is the right name) In about the 1942, 43, 44 annuals there are some drawings and comments on early folk art for long rifles and designs of the day.
I reviewed these via inter-library loan. I was the only one who had read them as I had to cut some of the pages open!
I was doing some research on my families' genealogy and the uncles in the "Landes Vally" were listed in these books, the drawings were a bonus spin-off.
I think you would benefit from reviewing them IMHO.

I think you are spot on regarding the "original" folk artists doing what seemed right w/o the pressures of HC.
I like your design was it pushes the envelope of a modern builder and a personal interpretation. I feel one learns by copying the early works but blossoms with their continuations and efforts.


I look forward to seeing your next piece.

[axelp]

thank you  will check it out!

K

[Karl Kunkel]

Rick,

I think you're referring to the Pennsylvania German Folklore Society Annual Volumes.  Vol VII from 1942 has an article on Lancaster Rifles, Vol IX (1944) has an article on Lancaster Rifle Accessories.  Both articles ar written by the Landis brothers.

[JTR]

I googled;
Pennsylvania German Folklore Society Annual Volumes.  Vol VII from 1942

Below is one of the 'hits'. It has the book as a free download, but I couldn't download it,,, probably because I'm out on a boat with a slow connection.
 
http://worid-of-books.com/?id=GiILAAAAIAAJ

John

[axelp]

the download was some "PC only" .exe file. since I am on a mac, that dawg won't hunt!

thanks I will try it on a pc.

KennyP

[keweenaw]

My system tells me that file is infected with something nasty so you may not want to download it.

Tom

[rick landes]

I googled;
Pennsylvania German Folklore Society Annual Volumes.  Vol VII from 1942

Below is one of the 'hits'. It has the book as a free download, but I couldn't download it,,, probably because I'm out on a boat with a slow connection.
 
http://worid-of-books.com/?id=GiILAAAAIAAJ

John

Thank you for the kind assist...Of all the things I have lost I miss my mind the most!

[axelp]

ok so I WONT try it on a pc!  Luckily my mac is not bothered by most virus's.

Ken

[JTR]

Ooops Sorry!
No indication of a virus when I tried to download it, just that nothing happened.

John