Barrel length minimum?

[rick landes]

I have a customer who is interested in a short barrel rifle (as short as 16"?) for a special hunt he is setting up. Ranges will be 50 yards max at whitetail deer. He is a long distance runner and has often come up on deer while on his cross country training. He is considering carrying a light short rifle with him.

Any ideas if this is possible (accuracy and energy wise)? He is speaking of a .50 caliber.

Any thoughts are welcome. Thanks in advance for your feedback too!

[Jim Chambers]

Why not consider one of Barbie's 13" barrel pistol kits.  We are hearing of many deer that have been taken with these pistols.

[Dave B]

Rick,
I think Jim is right on with his suggestion. He could use a cross chest carry. I think he would  be restricted too much by the extra length of a butt stock trying to carry a short rifle.

[Kermit]

Check your state game regs. I'd bet there are some that won't let you use a "handgun." But hey, if it has a buttstock...

I seem to recall Mike Nesbitt doing a bit many years back on a 12ga SxS with 14" barrels. Called a Confederate something-or-other. I think it was in one of the "Buckskinning" series of books. I imagine a .72 cal RB out of a 14" barrel at short range might do the trick.

You thinking canoe gun (sic) or blunderbuss or some such? Or a really short jaeger? Or...?

[Jerry V Lape]

Be careful about short barreled rifles with respect to the federal laws.  I don't know how they apply to muzzleloaders but there is a minimum length for rifles and shotguns.

[bama]

Freddie Harrison has an original rifle that has a very short barrel. I did not measure it but I'm thinking it was in the 18 to 20" barrel lenght. I think this rifle was of German origin and may have been an early gallery type gun, Oh and it is a flintlock.

I shoot target pistol and we have no problem getting good groups out of a six in barrel at 50. Now this is with a fast twist barrel and less powder than would be used in a rifle. But I think an 18 to 20 inch barrel in slow twist would group at fifty just fine.

[Larry Luck]

Here's an original carbine with a 13" barrel.
http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/51/lid/79
Sorta fancy, but a neat gun.
Larry Luck

[Dphariss]

I have a customer who is interested in a short barrel rifle (as short as 16"?) for a special hunt he is setting up. Ranges will be 50 yards max at whitetail deer. He is a long distance runner and has often come up on deer while on his cross country training. He is considering carrying a light short rifle with him.

Any ideas if this is possible (accuracy and energy wise)? He is speaking of a .50 caliber.

Any thoughts are welcome. Thanks in advance for your feedback too!

If he can shoot it well enough a pistol with a 8-10" barrel will kill deer OK.  With 50+ grains of powder. But the design has to be right for recoil like a 44 mag.
I would recommend 54 caliber and a slow twist barrel, cut off rifle barrel rather than fast twist pistol barrels. Though I have never tested a 22 twist barrel for max loads. But I have made a number with 66 and 70" twists in 50-54-58 with good results and some have been used on large game.
With this in mind a 16" barreled rifle will be fine ballistically but frankly carrying it while running would be a PITA I think and he needs to think this through carefully.
I have often thought of making a "buggy rifle" with a 12" or so long barrel and a detachable stock.

This is the upper front leg bone of the mule deer doe shot with a 8" barreled percussion pistol in 54 caliber. Broke the bone took out the heart and lodged against the far side hide. 20-25 yard shot.


So power is not a problem. But I was shooting 70 gr of FFF. It was the accuracy load for that barrel.

Dan

[LRB]

Be careful about short barreled rifles with respect to the federal laws.  I don't know how they apply to muzzleloaders but there is a minimum length for rifles and shotguns.

 There are no federal restrictions on ML barrel lengths, whether rifled or smooth.

[Stophel]

Here's an original carbine with a 13" barrel.
http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/51/lid/79
Sorta fancy, but a neat gun.
Larry Luck

Cool gun, very Dutch looking.

www.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Original%20Flintlocks/1830Stutzen

Here's my old German rifle.  About 1820-30. Much older lock.  16" barrel.  Around .65 cal.   

[Dphariss]

Be careful about short barreled rifles with respect to the federal laws.  I don't know how they apply to muzzleloaders but there is a minimum length for rifles and shotguns.

 There are no federal restrictions on ML barrel lengths, whether rifled or smooth.

Yeah, they are not firearms as defined by the Feds. However, state and local game laws may limit pistol use for hunting.
And the BATF could re-write the law anytime they feel the need to do so.

Dan

[Dan'l 1946]

And most, if not all, states have minimum barrel length requirements during hunting season.

[bama]

Recon old Danel Boone thought it was a pita to run with long rifle? Our service men run with a 75# plus pack on their back and carry a weapon that weighs a little more than our Long or short guns, recon they find it a pita? If I could run fast enough to run up on a deer I would have no problem carrying a 8# rifle and the stuff to shoot it. The problem is I can't run fast enough to get out of my own way, HA!!!!!!!!!

[LRB]

  I have hunted 5 different states. None had any length restrictions other than the federal requirements for modern gun barrel lengths, 16" rifle, 18" shotgun. As far as BATF making restrictive changes to ML guns, I think they would be more likely to make more restrictions on black powder itself.  At any given time.

[Dave Faletti]

How about carrying a pistol in each hand?  That would keep things balanced.     I would keep a decent length on a pistol or rifle.  Not so much for performance but less likely to get burned on a rule change.  Washington and Oregon seem to change their rules on muzzleloaders every couple of years.  One or both had a barrel length restriction but not now its just Washington with a min pistol length.    If I read it right Oregon banned non-lead bullets in the 2011 rules.

[Dphariss]

Recon old Danel Boone thought it was a pita to run with long rifle? Our service men run with a 75# plus pack on their back and carry a weapon that weighs a little more than our Long or short guns, recon they find it a pita? If I could run fast enough to run up on a deer I would have no problem carrying a 8# rifle and the stuff to shoot it. The problem is I can't run fast enough to get out of my own way, HA!!!!!!!!!

I did not say it could not be done. I said it was a PITA. I am SURE Boone felt the same way about having the rifle and other gear along if speed and agility was needed. But throwing it away is bad idea too.
There is a difference between long distance running for training or fun and running with a heavy load in the military.
I have a fair idea of how far I can run with a 60 pound+ load, or could when I was a lot younger. Its not very far.  Not as far as I would have liked at the time.

Dan

[rick landes]

As usual you all have provided some excellent feedback. I will print this out and share it with him. If he goes a given direction I will let you all know or is that all ya all know?!

[T*O*F]

Recon old Danel Boone thought it was a pita to run with long rifle? Our service men run with a 75# plus pack on their back and carry a weapon that weighs a little more than our Long or short guns, recon they find it a pita? If I could run fast enough to run up on a deer I would have no problem carrying a 8# rifle and the stuff to shoot it.

Actually, you don't have to run fast to run up on a deer.  It's an old hunting method...I remember a guy writing an article about it in Field and Stream back in the 60's.  The deer can hear you coming and watch with curiosity as you run by. You are not a threat.  It's when you stop that they bolt.  Kinda like seeing deer while on horseback.  They don't preceive you as a threat while "on" the horse.

As for weight, I ran a 5:20 mile in fatigues and boots.  During Ranger Week at Benning, I was carrying a 60 lb pack with a radio strapped on the back, and an M60.  We were wading thru a swamp, belt deep in water.  A water mocassin comes swimming thru.  The head ranger casually scoops it up with his stick and flips it over his shoulder into the middle of our squad line.  Guys scattered in all directions.  I couldn't move cause my boots were ankle deep in the mud from the weight.  Luckily the snake continued on its way.

[Robby]

Wow, that is one fast mile TOF! I think my best was 6:05, and I was only carrying the weight of the world, or so I thought at the time.
Robby

[Sean]

If he's more interested in the 19th century than the 18th and the West instead of the East, maybe he should consider a cut down NW gun/buffalo runner gun.  They will do fine at that range on any North American game, plus short range birds and small game with shot.  There are a lot of these in museum collections.  A NW gun in 24 or 20 ga with a 16-20" barrel would probably come in at maybe 4 1/2 lb. 

Sean

[Gaeckle]

I built a 59 caliber rifle that has a 24 inch barrel. I shoot 70 grains of 2f in that gun and if I increase the powder by so as a smidgeon it let's me know....I get thumped and hard! The accuracy isn't to bad between 25 and 50 yards. After 50 yards the groups open up.

The 25 yard groups are great....one big hole after the other......at 50 yards I get 2 inch groups at best (mostly between 3-4 inches)....

Advise your customer that anything past 50 yards is a wing and a prayer shot.....and he'll need to watch his powder load....

[JCKelly]

Years ago at one of our Canoe Shoots I let flyl a few .65 cal balls from an old Paget carbine. Muzzle blast from that 14" barrel does interesting things to one's left ear.

Seems to me that if a .45 Colt Dragoon could take out a grizzley bear (recorded event) then most any short percussion rifle in, say .50 or .54 cal, should be more than adequate.

Wear at least a left earplug, though.

[Jim Kibler]

Here's an original carbine with a 13" barrel.
http://www.rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/51/lid/79
Sorta fancy, but a neat gun.
Larry Luck

Cool gun, very Dutch looking.

www.photobucket.com/albums/v326/Fatdutchman/Original%20Flintlocks/1830Stutzen

Here's my old German rifle.  About 1820-30. Much older lock.  16" barrel.  Around .65 cal.   

Stophel,

So what makes you think this is Dutch?

-Jim

[Stophel]

Overall styling, shape of the butt, the carving at the lower rod pipe.  It has a very French/Belgian/Dutch appearance, and I lean towards Dutch.

[Jim Kibler]

Stophel,

It may be Dutch, but in my mind there are a lot of possibilities.  I see the stock architecture as a pretty generic 17th century form rather than from any specific area.  It's certainly architecture the French developed which spread to much of Europe.  The lock design points to the first quarter of the 18th century as a likely construction date.  The gun certainly isn't academic French work.  The carving at the entry pipe is a spin off of French designs, but is a bit funky.  I see all the posibilities you mention as well as it being a Germainic piece.  I've tried to find connections based on the lock design, but haven't found anything definitive.  One interesting feature is the squared out bend of the frizzen spring.  I'm not certain how widespread this feature is, but I've seen it commonly on work from the Munich, Vienna area and into Czechoslavakia.  I'd love to hear any thoughts others might have.

Thanks,
Jim