Satisfactory bison/elk flintlock rifles - bore size(s) and load(s)?

[Naphtali]

Ken Prather initiated a topic on buffalo into which I did not want to intrude.

While I have no intention of hunting/shooting a bison - I couldn't efficiently use that much meat - I am curious, interested, in answers to two related questions pertaining to flintlock round ball rifles with which to hunt bison.

Those of you who have successfully hunted elk and/or bison with flintlock round ball rifles:

1. What, in your experience, is the smallest bore size you would be comfortable and confident to use? And what would be a load for this bore size?

2. If you were creating a flintlock rifle for this purpose, what bore size and load would you use in your creation?

[BrownBear]

I've not killed either, but been on hand for 9 elk kills on our place in the Southwest and two buffalo up here in the north.  Five of the elk were with single shots with 54 cal RB, charges 80-90 grains of 2f and all 50 yards or less.  The other four were with 50 cal and conicals at 80-110 yards, and all required follow-up shots.  Accurate shooting and the hunting skill to get close seems to be the common denominator.  The two guys who accounted for the four 50 cal conical kills subsequently switched to 54 cal RB and took their elk on the subsequent trip with the 54's.

Both buffalo were killed with single shots from the same 54 cal flinter by the same hunter, two years apart.  Both were one-shot kills, though on the first the shot was a little far back through the liver and the large bull ran about 200 yards before dropping and expiring before a second shot could be loaded and fired.

I shoot a lot of 54, 58, and now 62 caliber.  The 62 would be dandy with the right stock so a guy could keep his loads up for a little flatter trajectory out to 100 yards.  While the 54 is "plenty," by all indications, my pick as the best compromise for trajectory, recoil and killing power would probably fall to the 58.  Of course, that's my favorite caliber so I'm likely to build my choice around it. 

[Daryl]

  I cannot see how ignition makes a difference, and moose are a bit bigger, if slighly easier to kill than elk - been there on quite a number of round ball and ML slug killed moose. 

Like Brownbear's observations, all the slug-shot moose needed multiple shots, ie: not just 2, either.  Was never in on the kills by 'ol Max, who used a PH Volunteer rifle and 475gr. FN bullet with healthy charge - he got a moose very year with that and never needed more than 1 for each.  I saw the problems coming from slow rifling, ie: 48" twists and short slugs.  The PH has the proper twist and a good bullet.

From my observations, a .50 is about minimal for moose and I'd include elk with them. I would no sooner go after a buffalo with a .50 or even .54, than I would a deer with my .32.

I personally would draw the line on buffalo at .58 calibre with a round ball, and actually prefer something 20 bore or larger.  My 14 bore would be perfect with it's 480 gr. ball.  Dan would say his 16 bore was perfect with it's 1 oz. ball and my buddy Keith would say his 11 bore would be perfect with it's 600gr. ball.

[Roger B]

Both of my bison were with the same .58; a 36" barrel with 1/72 twist.  110gr of 3F is the load, not because I think it takes that much, but because the rifle likes it & hates 2F.  I talked to Doc White about bison hunting a couple of years back & he had quite a bit of experience with round balls & buffalo.  He mentioned that he had seen many shot with .50 & .54s with mixed results, but his .62 (or .69, I can't remember exactly) was pretty sure fire on bison.  I would think that a .54, heavily loaded, would be OK and anything larger that you can shoot well would be even better.  Read any of the fur trade journals on bison hunting & you will really get the idea.  If they wind you, they don't run 100yds & look back.  They stop about a mile later.  In my experience, they can be hard to kill & slow to die, even when well hit.  Knowing the anatomy is critical, as the bison presents a huge mass, but a small & well protected kill zone, low in the chest.  I suspect that small caliber guns, poor knowledge of anatomy, & bad range estimation is why most of the fur trade "greenhorns" banged away at bison their first time out & came away empty handed.  I've also seen a herd surround & guard a downed animal with some hooking her with horns trying to get her up.  If they are truly wild (like the Henry Mts herd in Utah) they can be a real challenge to hunt.  And then the work starts.  Bring lots of sharp knives or a few good ones & as many sharpening stones.
Roger B.

[Leatherbelly]

You wouldn't have a snack, would you? ROFLMFAO!!
sorry Naphtali

Buffalo tracker extraordinaire!

[Leatherbelly]

  Naphtali,
   I've never hunted them but have been close to a few while deer hunting. The cows are a lot smaller then the mature bulls.These 3 bulls I encountered were freakin huge! They were bedded together and not one of them was under 2500 pounds. Very intimidating to say the least. I tried to get closer for a picture but got scared off by a young bull that stomped up and down and acted like a spanish bullfight bull!  I think you can't get enough gun to hunt these behemoths. An anatomy study would be in order before taking a shot, as I've been told these critters can outrun a horse.

[black ed]

I've taken 3 with a 62 cal, 120 grains of ff. 2 cows and 1 bull. The ball was found lodged between skin and carcus far side on each. Every ounce of evnergy was expended with in each animal.
Hope this helps.
Black ed

[Dphariss]

The old considered minimum for the west was 50. This turns up in some quote I saw in a book with one the fur companies commenting the bore sizes they needed in rifles.
It is obvious that a 50 will kill a buffalo, 54 better etc etc on up the scale.
BUT I also know that a buffalo rib will take a lot of "ooph" off even a 44-77 bullet. So if I were to shoot a buff with a ML I would opt for something bigger than a 54.
There are historical accounts of people shooting buffalo numerous times with no resolution one I read the guy shot every ball in his pouch, watched the buff for awhile then gave up and returned to camp. Either Clark or Lewis experienced similar with the determination the rifle  ball "was too small". It was his personal rifle which may have been 100 to the pound.
Someone, might have been Garrard in "Wah To Yah and the Taos Trail" or maybe Ruxton, mentioned someone killed a buffalo that had a bullet wound through the "heart sack" apparently from the day before.
Now had to ball gotten INTO the heart or damaged the lungs the buffalo would probably not have been lost to the original shooter. But its an interesting insight.
In "The Oregon Trail" Parkman details his guide killing 2 buffalo in 2 shots in the lungs at 175 yards and the rifle were likely in the 54 caliber range given the time and place. But the buffalo made 1/4 to 1/2 mile after being shot.
Buffalo can be VERY VERY tough as are most bovine types.
Was it Sam Fadala? that put a 54 RB side to side through the brain and the bull GOT BACK TO ITS FEET? Hard to believe but there were witnesses.

Dan

[BrownBear]

...put a 54 RB side to side through the brain and the bull GOT BACK TO ITS FEET....

I'm only being a little tongue in cheek, but in all my years around them, that pretty well confirms the proportion of their skull cavity that actually has a little gray matter.    

They can seem pretty dense on first encounter, then you realize it's just that they're a whole lot more "wild" than beef, even standing in a pasture.  You just don't treat them like cattle, even on horseback.

[Roger B]

Leatherbelly, that is truly a noble canine!  You should never hunt bison without your dachsy!  In case of a charge, they can hamstring a bull in seconds. 
Roger B.