accuracy

[YORKTOWNE54]

Has anyone ever seen an increase in accuracy by going down in ball size and up in patch thickness. The norm always seemed to be increase the rb diameter. Guess it may depend on rifling depth etc? Longer shots seem to need a better seal in the 54. Closer shots, not so important.

[wattlebuster]

I shoot a .527 self moulded ball with a .018 pillow tick patch in all my 54s (three) an get great accuracy out to 120 yrds. I have never shot further than that cause I cant see past that anyway.

[Daryl]

Accuracy is in the eye of the beholder. What is accurate to some, might not be accurate to others.  It all depends on what you want or demand - if it is the best accuracy possible, then you need not only the largest ball you can load, but also the thickest patch you can load with that ball.

If a smaller ball and thicker patch was more accurate than a larger ball and slightly thinner patch, then that's what the accuracy guys (bench and chunk) would be using.

Such is not the case - they use a ball that is actually larger than the bore and a .015" to .020".  The closer we can come to that 'combination' the better will be our accuracy.  Ask them what they use for powder charges and you might be shocked.

Over the years, we've shown time and time again, going from a ball .010" smaller than the bore to a ball only .005" smaller than the bore, has increased accuracy - ie: made smaller groups. 

We've also found you cannot shoot at 25 yards and gain any meaningful knowledge about the accuracy of that load.  You must shoot at 50 yards or further.

None of us here have to wipe the bore during a day's shooting - some people like to use a thin patch, no short starter, and have to wipe the bore often.  If you have to wipe the bore at any time to allow loading or to ease load, the combination used is not sealing and the accuracy suffers.

Get a seal and the bore shoots cleanly & fouling never builds up, shot to shot. There is never any more than the last shot's fouling in the bore- when you load the next one, you clean the previous shot's fouling.

The accuracy difference between a smaller ball and thicker patch, and a larger ball and thinner, but still substancial patch, is very small.  Neither scenario is accurate without a very tight combination - both require short starters (easier method) or a lot of pressure (harder method) to start the patched ball. Once started, it laods quite esily as there is never any buildup of fouling in the bore - all day shooting whether that's 25 shots or 125 shots.

[Levy]

If the bore is slightly rough, I can see where it might compromise/cut a thinner patch.  A smaller ball and thicker patch might work better in that scenario.  I think that situation has been discussed on the  forum before.

James Levy

 

[hanshi]

For most of us the ball/patch combo is something of a compromise.  You want the tightest combo that can be seated, in the field, with a wooden rod.  Daryl is on the money about the combo keeping the bore clean with a snug combo.  I like a thicker patch and .005-.010 undersized ball.  A thicker patch holds more lube, too.

[Daryl]

For most of us the ball/patch combo is something of a compromise.  You want the tightest combo that can be seated, in the field, with a wooden rod.  Daryl is on the money about the combo keeping the bore clean with a snug combo.  I like a thicker patch and .005-.010 undersized ball.  A thicker patch holds more lube, too.

Absolutely we like the thick patch and the larger ball.

[George Sutton]

I went from a very tight ball/patch combo in my .58 to a smaller ball and thinner patch material. I can thumb press the ball into the end of the barrel and achieved superior accuracy. I just completed a shot for "Impossible Shots" a balloon offhand at 300 yards with this combo.

Centershot

[Daryl]

That's quite amazing, centershot. I just got Wild TV through Fiber-Optic TV - it wasn't available on cable . I saw the double, 5 and 6 card cut- very impressive in that wind.

What sort of group have you made do you think you could make at that range - or at 100, with that loose load?

[Mike R]

Probably beating a dead horse, but you folks are talking about PRECISION [tight groups on target].  ACCURACY is the centering of the group on target.  I know, picky, picky, picky....

[northmn]

Probably beating a dead horse, but you folks are talking about PRECISION [tight groups on target].  ACCURACY is the centering of the group on target.  I know, picky, picky, picky....

Absolutely true.  We had quite a discussion about that difference.  It also brings up a point Daryl mentioned concerning shooter satisfaction for a combo.  I use express sights and a large bead anymore in more in the field so that I can see the sights.  Using that combo does not permit me to take advantage of the most precision the gun is capable of, not do I need minute of angle precision at 100 yards. 
Precision is also related to the barrel design.  I would guess that some of the barrels with rifling of 016 or so would require a very thick patch.  The old Numrich barrels I sued were supposed to be about 008 and required a larger ball and thinner patch, especially for heavier loads.  Douglas barrels with their 010 or better seemed to like a little more patch.  Personally I wonder if the real deep rifling is not too much of a good thing. 

DP

[Daryl]

There are those (only a few) who say a barrel has to have at least .025" rifling depth to be accurate.  In a re-bound from my experience with a button rifled TC .50, I was one-such who felt rifling couldn't be too deep.

 Then, I had the opportunity to shoot a .50 with .025" rifling depth & found it to be less accurate after MUCH experimentation, than the more typical .010" to .012" I was shotoing at the time- Bauska barrels. In the Bauska barrels I was shooting normal .495" balls with .022" denim patching- they shot great.  The same combo didn't give enough compression in the bottom of the grooves in the deep one, so I tried canvas- difficulty loading due to the amount of lead being moved on the tops of the lands and poorer accuracy than the 'standard' combo in a standard barrel. At that time, I didn't want to shoot .490's, but perhaps they would have worked in the very deep grooving.

I know for a fact in watching Taylor shoot his .50 Virginia (.016" depth), that a .495" ball and .020" works just fine in that barrel.  It is the same typical combination I've found shoots best in every one of my barrels, past and present.

If you get good accuracy with a looser combo, that's just great! When someone asks what combination works best, I will always reiterate what works best for me, from ball sizes, to patch thicknesses to muzzle shape and even sights,if applicable - or not-

[George Sutton]

I wou;d not recommend shooting a flintlock roundball gun at 300 yds. It gets very tiring. I had the balloon on a four foot stake. I estimate that I was holding eight feet over the target. The first shot went through the base of the stake about an inch off the ground. In retrospect. I think I ended up switching rifles and shot the balloon with my .45 rifle.
Centershot

That's quite amazing, centershot. I just got Wild TV through Fiber-Optic TV - it wasn't available on cable . I saw the double, 5 and 6 card cut- very impressive in that wind.

What sort of group have you made do you think you could make at that range - or at 100, with that loose load?

[northmn]

When we talk about what bench shooters, X stick shooters use we should also remember that they use a false muzzle which expedites loading.  A false muzzle can have a coned crown but still work as it is removed.  With out a false muzzle you cannot load as tight of a combo without smashing the nose of the ball and so forth.  I had found that the minimum patch thickness that worked for me was about 010 and that for shallow grooved barrels.  015 works pretty well with larger ball and 020 like some prefer may also work.  Again I think its a matter of barrel design, but also the combination has to be reasonably loadable.  Things like a matching jag to fit the ball in the short starter (for real precision you need a short started ball) to avoid too much damage to the nose of the ball and lube to ease loading are as important as ball patch choice.  Whether you use a 490 with 020 or a 495 with 015 may not be all that critical for iron sights as the other factors.

DP

[Leatherbelly]

Probably beating a dead horse, but you folks are talking about PRECISION [tight groups on target].  ACCURACY is the centering of the group on target.  I know, picky, picky, picky....

You are absolutely correct on that one.Once a tight group is achieved, then adjust the sights to center which equals ACCURACY!! Picky? LOL! nope!

[R.W.D.]

Have been following this thread with much interest.  I have been having a fouling issue with my 40 cal percussion GM barrel.   I've been having to wipe the bore down every 3 shots or so just to be able to set the ball completely.  I've been shooting a .390 ball with a .015 patch and 65 grs of Graf's  black powder.  Yesterday after squirrel hunting I tried using a .018 pillow ticking patch over 60 grs of powder.  The ball didn't seem to be any harder to load after using the short starter and I was able to seat it completely after 4 shots and no cleaning.   I'll still need to take the rifle out and really try out this load to see if this is the answer.

[smallpatch]

I am able to shoot all day long without cleaning patches.  This is a function of ball size, patch thickness, powder and lube.

Most GM barrels like at least a ball of .005 less than bore size to one that IS bore size, .018 to .020 patch, and a liquid lube.   I've never found a paste type lube that would shoot as clean as a liquid lube.  ( your mileage may vary) 
 I've not used GRAF powders, but Goex, Scheutzen, or Swiss all shoot well, and clean.

You may get MANY varying opinions on this, but this works for me.

[bgf]

RWD,
Sounds like you are on the right track.  Aside from even thicker patch and bigger ball, you might also be able to get away with even less powder, which will decrease the fouling as well.  Take it to the range, put on bench, and see if you can get acceptable accuracy with lighter loads for squirrels and any target shooting you do.  In general more powder will be more accurate up to a point, but if you never shoot past 50 yards and 35 or 40 gr. does the trick, for example, that is an option you can consider.  The old-timers supposedly used rule of thumb where number of grains = caliber.  That is a good starting point, and should be especially good with 3f.  That said, I found my .50 improves with up to 90 gr. at 50 yards, on the bench.  I will often load it up for 50 yards, if my shooting that day justifies it, but at 25 yards, its hard to tell the difference between 50 and 80 gr., except in the amount of powder used.

[Kaintuckkee]

I shoot a 395 in my GM 40.......022 denim patch with Lehigh Valley lube or ballistol and alcohol mix....have shot up to 40 times ...no cleaning between shots.....excellent accuracy last shots loads as easy as the first ones

[Daryl]

Maybe I'm also flogging a dead horse - I tend to do that.

Powder charges & what shoots well in a given barrel are interesting topics for me.

 Taylor started shooting 42gr.3F GOEX in his (then) new .40 Kuntz rifle as that is what the measure threw that he chose to use.  No load development, just a chosen charge & he shot it well.  He's now done a bit of paper target shooting with the rifle over the last couple years and now uses 65gr.,3F GOEX as it is a more accurate load.  That is with a water/alcohol based lube with some Murphy's soap and Neetsfoot oil added.  It is quite slippery - due to the soap and oil. He uses a .395" ball and a .020" denim patch.

My own .40 would not shoot well with less than 65gr. 3F GOEX when using a slippery lube, but with straight alcohol/water/bit of Neetsfoot oil, it shoots well with 55gr. 3FGOEX. With that charge, I use a .397" ball and .0215"ticking or .0225" denim patch, or a .400" ball and .018"/.019" patch.  The .0215Ticking patch loads identically - no trouble at all 2 fingers on a 3/8" hickory rod - once it's started down about 5" with the short starter.

I wonder if the 'old rules of thumb' on powder charges are some late 19th or perhaps 20th century writer's ficticional writing (paid by the word, you know) or if that 'rule of thumb' is really true.

Those of us who've actualy done much shooting know that 45gr. in a .45, 50gr. in a .50 or 54gr. is a .54 will not work past your nose on any but small game or especially on targets. The lack of accuracy/precision at just 50 yards is amazing, let alone 75 or 100.

None of us who shot together up here has to wipe the bore while shooting a trail or out on the range shooting targets, no matter what gun we're using, rifle or smoothbore.   Common patch thicknesses we all use runs from .020" to .030", using calipers for measuring thickness.  That trus for our entire black popwder section - no one has to wipe - ever. Everyone uses a short starter & about everyone uses the rifle or smoothbore's rod for loading. Every now and then I'll pack a range rod along the trail to save not having to pull out the rifle's rod and replace it, but not often.

I'm lazy - if I had to wipe every shot, or every 3 to 5 shots even, I'd probably stop shooting muzzleloaders.

Having to wipe shows the bore is changing condition each and every shot. This means there never is a consistant bore condition. Consistancy is vital for excellent precision AND accuracy.  You cannot be consistant if the bore is not consistant.  If you have to wipe at any time - the bore is not remaining consistant.

It matters not what the weather is - humidity 6%, or 100% - none of us has to wipewhile shooting - ever.  The only time we wipe the bore is when we are cleaning the rifle after all the shooting is done for the day.  For us, the first shot loads exactly the same as the 50th or the 100th that day.  Most of use clean the same day, some don't, especially when the humidity is low.

Yeah, I said I'm lazy, but - I have never rusted a bore since switching to cold water for cleaning.  I've been using cold water only since about 1980.

 

[Dphariss]

Another thing that folks need to think over is that things that apparently cause no problems at 50 or 100 will show problems at 200.
Any fouling on the lands that can be felt when loading will cause fliers.
So for max accuracy one must make sure the bore is clean. Water based patch lubes will remove the fouling from the lands. Wiping will too.
I get the creeps using water based lubes. Experience from years ago.
I was using tallow works amazingly well and just made a batch of Deer Tallow. But tallow may promote some strange reactions on steel so I am going to do some testing on bare steel. I have used enough water in the processing to remove the salt so I am wondering if there is some acidic component.
Gotta call Mad Monk I guess.
Bottom line is unless a water based lube is used I can't see some accuracy problems not arising in shooting at 200-300 unless wiped between shots.

Dan

[R.W.D.]

I have a .395 and a .390 Lee RB mold.  They both throw a ball about 3 thousandths over.  The .395 was just too hard to start down the bore.  It shot well but I had to use a mallet to load it.  I have been using TOTW's mink oil for a patch lube.  Have tried TC's bore butter but it seems to do nothing to soften the fouling.  I've got a lot of it that I bought on sale and now just use it for my cap and ball revolver.  I may try some Crisco next time.  Interested in the Murphy's oil soap.  Do you guys mix it with something or use it straight?  I know at 65 grains of powder my rifle just starts to "crack" when it is fired.  At 60 grains it is more of a boom.  I just finished this rifle at the first of Oct. and have only got 60 or so shots thru it.  I really need some more range time with it but right now it is hard to get away.

[bgf]

Daryl,
I probably don't count as someone that has shot a lot, but I don't see how one can go wrong systematically developing their load, and the rule of thumb is a good starting point.  At 50 yards, there is a big difference between 50 and 80 gr. in my .50, but at 25 yards you can't tell the difference, even from the bench in most cases, although the size of the hole may change slightly.  Many of the .40 cal. shooters here use 35-40 gr.  Some, as you say, don't have great results at 50 yards; others do quite well.  It all depends on the combindation of factors.

I think the rule of thumb is based on old powder measures found with rifles. 

[Daryl]

BFG - could very well be old measures and probably is.  Close range, ie: 25 yards is usually a 1-holer with most loads in most rifles.  In the smaller bores, we generally use the same charge no matter what the range - just as soon as someone would have loaded a 25 yard charge, the 'next' target would be called out and be at 75 yards or more. That's the way we shoot a trail. 

Some of the guys will up the charge considerably, over their normal plinking charge, but usually are shooting smoothbores when they do that. Failure to increase the charge will normally result in a miss - with a smoothbore.

I take it, a lot of 'shoots' down in the States are merely paper shoots at fixed ranges or clangrs hanging in a row at a fixed range - not walks through the bush with every target at a different range.  The scenario here is as close to a small game hunt as you are going to get, I guess. Each time you load, you pretty much have to be ready for any range. We will also shoot through the brush at other gongs and clangers from a single station - ranges unknown - be prepared, know your gun.

[Leatherbelly]

Just to add to Daryls Post. Ahh, paper shooting(bench) for me is to find out what my rifle/gun is doing.Shooting a woodswalk trail tells me what I am doing. Plus,the trail is away more fun.At some of our stations we can see half a dozen gong or steel targets or just a fraction thereof. Threading the needle,so to say is quite abit more challenging.It's more like hunting situations.

[bgf]

Daryl,
My initial suggestion only stemmed from the reaction that 65g of powder seems like an awfully lot to throw at a squirrel, or a lot of targets at known short ranges, esp. from a .40.  You're right about the target shooting here for the most part -- paper targets, fixed range, although we do have a woodswalk sometimes.  I'm always jealous hearing about the trail you all have -- sounds fun, but its a little far to drive every Sunday for me.