New Member With An Old Rifle

[napp]

Hi Guys,

As the subject says I am a new member to the forum and I am seeking some information concerning an old rifle I own.

The rifle was given to me on my 11th birthday in 1948 by my uncle who was a machinist and a part time gunsmith in a small Alabama town.  It was his habit to pass on to me weapons as gifts after he had tired of them.  This rifle is one of three black powder guns he gave me (the other two are shotguns).

I know very little about black powder guns, in general, and even less about the history of this particular gun.  I will add a small narrative to help explain the pictures I will try to attach to this post.  Please excuse my terminology if it isn't always correct.

All of the decorative pieces on the gun are brass with two exceptions.  There is a silver plate set into the left side of the stock that is inscribed with "A. W. RAYMOND".   There is a smaller silver plate set into the top of the stock comb that inscribed with "1830".  I am assuming these plates denote the original owner of the gun and the time he acquired it.

The gun appears to be original with the exception of the sights.  There is a hole in the comb of the stock which I would guess was for mounting a target type peep sight.  Sadly the top of the barrel shows additional grooves were cut for sight changes at some time during the life of the gun.  Additionally, the front sight appears to be of a more modern design than would have been prevalent during the period.  The lock and trigger actions are functional; and all springs appear to be unbroken.  My uncle always felt that the gun may have been converted from flintlock to percussion cap because of the 1830 date shown on the stock.  I have not slugged the barrel; but it appears to be .38-.40 caliber.  The overall length of the gun is 46".  The barrel length is 30".  

The word "TROY" can clearly be seen on top of the breech (does a muzzle loader have a breech?).  The name of the gunmaker is inscribed above the word "TROY".  Unfortunately, these old eyes cannot decipher the name; because it has eroded over the years.  Perhaps, it could be made clearer with some cleaning.  I do not want to attempt to do that for fear of messing something up.

Anyway, if I can pass Image Loading 101, I will attach some pictures of the rifle.  I would appreciate any info that could be provided.


















  

[smokinbuck]

Napp,
Welcome to the board. Your rifle raises a couple of questions with me; Obviously the front sight has been replaced and relocated or at one time had a globe sight as well as the blade (which is a replacement) and the rear at one time appears to have had a long bar on it based on the locking stud on the barrel. The two things I find most curious are the absence of double set triggers and the wrist hole for a target type sight. This may also have been the elevation screw hole for a long bar rear sight. Either way, the single trigger doesn't sem to fit with the former sight arrangement. Secondly, It has a great patch box but the rest of the hardware is not even close to the patch boxes quality. Seems to be a strange conglomeration of pieces and parts. This is just my 2 cents, hope someone else will chime in. Sorry, no information on "Raymond".
Mark

[Majorjoel]

I'm fairly sure this rifle came out of Troy New York.

[napp]

After reading smokinbuck's post, I took a closer look at the trigger housing.  There is a small screw located directly behind the trigger.  Looks as if it could be a set screw of some type.  I had never noticed it until now.  Is this a normal thing with these rifles?   What is the purpose of it?

[Bill of the 45th]

1. I think Joel's right it's a Troy N.Y. gun, and may have been a target rifle.  It was a popular pastime in the middle of the 19th century before and after that altercation between the North, and South.
2.  Though the trigger looks like it's from a musket, or fowler.  It may be a set target trigger, which would be set by pushing the trigger forward before shooting.  If it is a set trigger the screw would be for adjustment as to how light you wanted the trigger.  You may have to be in full or half cock to set it though.  The only true way to know is to pull the trigger.  Though the screw may be to take up over travel.
3.  The double tenons at the front are supposed to be there the sight is a replacement.

Bill

[woodsrunner]

Very interesting piece, and I'm interested in the comments to follow. If this rifle has an Alabama connection, remember that there is also a Troy, Alabama, a small town in the southeast part of the State. Wonder if there could be a connection here? I'll take a look in Jerry's books to see if the name shows up anywhere.

[nord]

I would concur about a NY heavily modified rifle. The style tends toward a late gun and I question the pewter nose-piece.

I took the liberty of enhancing the signature photo. It appears the signature was punched rather than stamped. Troy, NY is a pretty fair guess and there were gunmakers in the area at that time trained in PA. Your patchbox leads me to the conclusion that  this gun is by one of them.

Barrel has been shortened I believe. Maybe at both ends. Screw on trigger plate is for pull adjustment.

Given the estimated caliber I'd say an Adirondack rifle suited to big game in the mountains. Lateness of the rifle would not surprise me as to what sights might have been installed by the maker or owner.

When I say "late" I'm speaking circa Civil War. Probably a bit before. I suspect the barrel is by Remington which will be stamped and hidden on the underside by the stock. Unfortunately the barrel modification may have removed this evidence.

One thing of which I'm sure is that this rifle doesn't fit the southern mould. Everything I see suggests the Albany / Troy area.

More Data:

Aaron Weeks RAYMOND - b. 21 Jan 1801 in Norwalk, CT, s/o Aaron & Hannah R. WEEKS Raymond, g/s of Simeon & Hannah Raymond; A.W. came to Venango Co. in 1830 and laid out the site of Utica and then in 1844 purchased a large tract of land which now includes the site of Raymilton; removed to Franklin in 1858 and purchased a hotel which he conducted as The Rural House; engaged in oil production at Raymilton and other areas; m. 29 Sep 1824 in Sand Lake, NY to Ann Eliza WHITAKER, b. 1802 in Troy, NY, d/o Capt. Ephraim & Hannah Whitaker; 13 children were born to them, 10 of whom were: Matilda, m. 1. Matthew WHANN & 2. on 20 Jul 1882 to Jackson ROBISON; William W., resided in Raymilton, m Sarah __; George W., m. Mary ADAMS; Charles H., b. 3 Feb 1832, m. Jennie IVES; Hannah M., m. Oct 1854 to Philetus W. RAYMOND; Mary J., resided in Franklin; Harriett A., m. John L. NUTCHELL; Sarah L., m. in 1869 to William J. LAMBERTON; Aaron W., b. 17 Jul 1842, d. 1 Jan 1894, m. Oct 1877 to Elizabeth P. SIMCOX, d/o S. SIMCOX; Ann Elizabeth, resided in Franklin.

[smokinbuck]

I have to agree with Bill re the single set trigger, I didn't see the set screw earlier. I also have to agree with those calling it a New York rifle, it doesn't have any southern influence.
Mark

[napp]

Thanks for all the responses.

I believe Bill is correct about the set trigger.  I have not tried to move the set screw; but when I push the trigger forward there is a distinct movement with a "click".  The trigger pull is extremely light with the trigger in the forward position.

Nord's comments about the gun being a late gun (circa Civil War) are somewhat puzzling to me.  I'm having trouble trying to reconcile that with the 1830 date on the silver plate located forward of the wrist hole.  I can't think of a reason why the owner would have dated the gun 30 years prior to the manufacture date.

I notice in the genealogy posted by Nord that A.W. Raymond moved to Venango County, PA in 1830.  Perhaps the 1830 date on the gun is somehow related to that milestone in his life; or represents the year he acquired the rifle.  There's just no way to tell at this point if there is any correlation between the dates.   

[awol]

The style of patchbox and anchor-ish/cookie-cutter lock bolt escutcheon are common on  New York rifles.  Additionally, the rectangular inlays and looped spur brass trigger guard, and pewter fore-end caps seem to be used often in NY, too, probably more in the percussion era. 

While the date may indicate something other than the year of manufacture or acquisition, it may be that early; certainly before the Civil War.  After the completion of the Erie Canal in 1825, rifle styles changed quickly to cap-locks & half stocks.  The people there at that time were an industrious and forward-looking lot, who weren't slow to adopt new things.

The name on the barrel looks like it begins "ADOL----", to me.

It's a nice rifle.

[Longknife]

I believe one question was not answered: No, it was never a flintlock. It appears to have been built as a cap lock, and not converted.