Rifle styling and nuances

[Naphtali]

My present inventory of cap locks has some variables about which I'm curious. All have tip-up patent breeches that allow me to quickly dismount breeched barrel to clean in my bath tub. All are half-stock rifles. Some secure barrel to stock with one wedge, some use two wedges. Some have straight grip stocks, some have half-pistol grip.

1. Is there any advantage either way for wedges in terms of accuracy or durability? If there is, please identify the differences.
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2. I am getting my act together to have two .72-caliber RB flintlocks made. I appreciate my present rifles' ability to dismount breeched barrels by driving out wedges. Would this feature be significantly out of place on a half-stock and/or a full-stock flintlock?

3. Would a half-pistol grip be significantly out of place on a half-stock and/or a full-stock flintlock? My experience is that straight grip with trigger guard that emulates [partly] a half-pistol grip doesn't offer much advantage of real rifle control when compared with half-pistol grip.

[Jim Kibler]

I would suggest looking at English sporting rifles intended for big game.   Seems these might be perfect for you based on what I've heard.  I'm not sure if pistol grip stock designs came into being before the percussion system took over, but I would expect not.  This doens't mean you still couldn't use such a design though.  Online, I would suggest auction houses such as Bonhams, Christies, Thomas DelMar etc. for photographs of original rifles.

Good luck,
Jim

[Naphtali]

Jim:

Many thanks for the places to look for information.

I have 13 [special] sets of three different left- and right-handed flintlock parts, some sets of which I would want to be finished and fitted as part of this project. Since I'm in Montana, I would prefer to have locks' completion done here. Can you identify Montana ML gunsmiths/gun makers with whom you recommend I talk? If you cannot identify anyone in Montana, what about elsewhere?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Jim is right on when it comes to big bored rifles...the English design is most conducive to the felt recoil in rifles firing heavy lead.  The nuance that makes this work, is the comb line being almost parallel to the bore. 

Sam Hawken made several rifles with full pistol grips, but these are percussion rifles.  So what!  Build what pleases YOU!!

[bob in the woods]

Dan Phariss has posted photos of his big bore rifle , and he is in Montana. You might want to talk to him as a start.

[Jim Kibler]

Jim:

Many thanks for the places to look for information.

I have 13 [special] sets of three different left- and right-handed flintlock parts, some sets of which I would want to be finished and fitted as part of this project. Since I'm in Montana, I would prefer to have locks' completion done here. Can you identify Montana ML gunsmiths/gun makers with whom you recommend I talk? If you cannot identify anyone in Montana, what about elsewhere?

I don't know of anyone off hand.  Perhaps you could describe your project in a little more detail?  With everyone who frequents this site, you will likely find several leads.  One suggestion I would offer is to not worry about location.  Have the best person who falls within your budget do the work.

[bs2]

English Sporter would be my first choice.
I like the straight grip, but they also make a Rigby style with a pistol grip.
Wide butt plate, and not much drop..........
What style of rifling and twist are you going to use?
 

[Naphtali]

Jim:

Many thanks for the places to look for information.

I have 13 [special] sets of three different left- and right-handed flintlock parts, some sets of which I would want to be finished and fitted as part of this project. Since I'm in Montana, I would prefer to have locks' completion done here. Can you identify Montana ML gunsmiths/gun makers with whom you recommend I talk? If you cannot identify anyone in Montana, what about elsewhere?

I don't know of anyone off hand.  Perhaps you could describe your project in a little more detail?  With everyone who frequents this site, you will likely find several leads.  One suggestion I would offer is to not worry about location.  Have the best person who falls within your budget do the work.

It's a long, unhappy story that I hope ends well. Between 15 and 20 years ago I was having made a pair of Ferguson Officer's Model Sporting rifles, plus a companion over/under flintlock pistol. While the pistol project had not gotten beyond breeched barrels because of money issues, one Ferguson (configured similarly to a M1803 Harpers Ferry rifle) was about 95 percent completed while the other was less developed. I had an opportunity to futz with the 95 percenter for part of a day - orgasmic! A shop fire at the gun maker's destroyed everything, and, of course, he had no insurance. . . . Years pass.

I arrange to have Ferguson actions made. After nine years of fudging, the maker quit. . . . Several months of depression. . . . We are now current.

I abandoned creating Fergusons in favor of two .72-caliber flintlock rifles. Barrel blank #1 has been made, 1.125-inch diameter with 1:72 inch twist. What I don't know for sure is its length - between 29 and 34 inches (whatever I get, I get). Barrel blank #2 is somewhere in process.

For the second Ferguson project, I had custom lock sets created - that is, cast but unfinished and fitted - for which I seek someone to render as flintlocks. While I require only two locks, I kind've went power crazy when I ordered - 13 lock sets, left- and right-handed, of three configurations. Two configurations are long arm sized; one configuration is pistol sized.
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During the life of these projects, I have been using off-the-shelf cap lock rifles. I have learned to appreciate being able to dismount breech barrel from stock assembly for cleaning. Because research to identify how I [would have] wanted my Fergusons configured was an incredible downer, I never thoroughly investigated/decided what my rifles would look like, or whether they would be a matched pair or differently configured. . . .

Which brings us to now. Phase one is to acquire what is needed to create rifles. Barrel blanks are attended to. Lock sets are not locks. While the gun maker for the rifles may be the gun maker who creates my locks, I cannot be sure of this. So, I'm attempting to find the lock creator. And when I do, I'll confirm whether he can make the rifles. Since my aspirations are being brought into alignment with what can actually be done, it's time to identify what flintlock rifles I want to have upon project's completion. One thing I would not want is for either rifle to be an eyesore. Beyond shotgun butt plate rather than Hawken crescent style, and preference for half-pistol grip (I can live with straight grip), I'm flexible. I understand that [available] barrel length may dictate configuration. Again, I can live with that.

So this is where I am. Clearly, I need guidance.

[Jim Kibler]

Naphtali,

My advice is to roughly determine the type of rifles you want built and then carefully select the best builder, for these styles of rifles, that you are able to afford.  Entrust this person to design and build your rifle.  Let this person make the decisions and organize the project.  A quality gunsmith will have spent years studying and learning the subtlies of rifles and should be the one to control the project.  I understand you have already arranged for barrels and locks.  These may work and may not.  What types of lock castings did you have made?  How did you arrive on this style of lock?  Lots of questions.

Jim

[keweenaw]

Please listen to Jim's advise.  You'll be much happier with the result in the end.  Depending on the quality of the models and casting it's going to take someone somewhere between 20 and 40 hours each to put together your locks.  At a modest shop rate of $25/hour that's a minimum of $500 each.  You've mentioned that you have a 1 1/8" blank.  That will need to be contoured.  The good barrel makers are set up to contour their blanks as they produce barrels, have the equipment to do it.  Most gunsmiths can but it takes much more time due to equipment limitations.  Could be as much as 8 hours depending on what's required.  I had that much time doing a round swamped profile on a 577 barrel I put on a Martini starting with a 1 1/8" 8620 blank that required cutting 5 different tapers.

My advise is the same as Jim's.  Find a good gun maker who builds guns in the general style you want and have him build you one where he's in control of what's going on in terms of lock, stock and barrel.

Tom