Soldering or Dovetailing the Under Lugs

[Rasch Chronicles]

Gentlemen,

I've been curious. On lightweight barrel profiles, underlugs are soldered, so as to not weaken the barrel, leave it too thin. I would ventue to guess that soldering is also much easier. But are both methods found in originals? Is there any virtue to the dovetailing of underlugs as opposed to that of soldering?

If we were talking cabinet making... there would be much hair pulling and gnashing of teeth over this question, just substitute the word glue for soldering!

Best regards,
Albert “Afghanus” Rasch
Lions in the Front Yard

[caliber45]

Albert -- Sorry I don't have an answer to your questions, but wanted to say that I build half-stock rifles, and solder (with SWIF from Brownells) underlugs routinely. I use a piece of strap steel, bent to 45 degrees, and solder one "leg" to the next-to-bottom flat of the barrel, with the "free" leg extending downward into the web and reaching just short of the ramrod channel. I use a pin (rivet, actually) rather than a flat wedge "key," and the soldered underlug works fine. Have not yet had one fail. For what it's worth . . . paulallen, tucson az

[Jim Kibler]

Soldering underlugs is very much a modern idea in my opinion.  I can't recall ever seeing an original where they were soldered on.   Even on very thin fowler barrels I've looked at, small dovetails were upset and clinched over the underlugs.  These were, however, brazed with brass as well.  I suspect the small clinched dovetails were used primarily to hold the underlug in place while brazing in this case.  On rifles, very shallow (.020-.025") slots can be cut and the dovetail can be raised with a chisel.  The underlug is inserted and the raised metal clinched on the lug.  This is the typical method of installation found on original rifle barrels.  Fowler barrels aside, I don't think you will encounter a barrel wall so thin that underlugs can't safely be installed in this method.

[wvmtnman]

I personally have never seen one soldered/brazed  on but have only taken apart a couple originals.  I have an original 20 ga. fowler with a VERY thin barrel.  Even it is dove tailed.  From my experience, fowler underlugs were very thin and rifle underlugs were a little more hefty.   
                                                                                Brian

[dough]

I file the lug bases thin, create a shallow dovetail and secure with  soft silver solder. As Jim suggests the dovetail holds the lug in place for soldering. I never seem to get 'em set right  the first time just by soldering alone. Maybe I need to make a holder like Don Getz mentioned recently. Or take soldering lessons!!

[Don Getz]

As Jim Kibler said above, most originals I have looked at had a slot chisled into the barrel, raising up the metal at each end
and inserting an underlug, then peening down the raised end.  Even Joe Long rifles are done that way with a "hook" type
of underlug.    I think Allen Martin solders his underlugs on.  He has underlugs made for him that have a very thin base
and is easy to solder.    If it's well done, should hold OK.   For many years I used staples, as sold by Pete Allan.  They were cast and had a little foot on them.   I even used these on Trans. B weight barrels in 50 cal., which has a rather thin
wall at the small part.   When doing this, you have to be extremely careful.....don't drill too deep, and you have to be careful that you don't put a dimple in the barrel when you upset the metal around the base of the lug.  One problem that
you have with staples, you have to be more careful when drilling the hole for the pin.    You're not making a new hole for
the pin, you have to hit an existing slot............Don

[B.Habermehl]

I habitually over engineer things. When I put a lug on a barrel near the waist I solder them on. I never had a problem with one coming off. Plus I never need to worry about dimpling the bore or thinning the barrel walls at all near the waist.  In the thicker areas of the barrel I will dovetail the lugs, around .040- .050 deep.  In other words a heavy 1/32 deep to a bit less than 1/16 (.062).

[northmn]

I habitually over engineer things. When I put a lug on a barrel near the waist I solder them on. I never had a problem with one coming off. Plus I never need to worry about dimpling the bore or thinning the barrel walls at all near the waist.  In the thicker areas of the barrel I will dovetail the lugs, around .040- .050 deep.  In other words a heavy 1/32 deep to a bit less than 1/16 (.062).

I do pretty much the same.  On fowlers I have found solder to work very well.  For some reason the old 50/50 lead tin seems to be easiest for me and holds.

DP

[Rasch Chronicles]

Thanks for all the replies!

Now, bear with me. When I build my Chambers Colonial Fowler I would like to stay within period whenever possible, so with that in mind:

Wouldn't it have been easier to solder the clinched dovetail than to braze it? And correct me if I am wrong, but the metal is brought up to the solder's melting point. That would be about 375 degrees for common solders including lead as back in the day. Does that temperature affect the barrel in any way? Seems low in the tempering scheme of things.

And if I understood correctly, the traditional dovetails on fowler barrels were shallow for their width, and the tails peened down to hold the underlug's pins. Then they were soldered, brazed, or left as is. Right?

So... I could safely dovetail the barrel and peen the underlug in place, and solder, and still be period correct.  Or should I skip the soldering.

By the way, I intend to use my fowler, it will be a working gun. I have great and dramatic plans for it! Merriam's in Nebraska, wild boar in Florida, Elk in Montana, just the usual stuff...

Thanks again for all the replies, I appreciate all of you being so generous with your knowledge!

Best Regards,
Albert “Afghanus” Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles: George Washington, President and Fisherman

[B.Habermehl]

Albert, Dovetail the lower lug it will be in the octagonal part of the barrel. Solder on the rest with plumbing solder. No need for silver brazing etc. Besides to get the barrel hot enough to hard (silver) solder you will scale the bore. Soft solders operate at lower temperatures. The steel will turn straw colered to blue with no harm done.  You will need to install the front sight the same way.

[Rasch Chronicles]

Mr H,

Hmmm, I'd forgotten about the front sight... adjust for point of aim and then solder, while still in the white.

Best Regards,
Albert “Afghanus” Rasch
In Afghanistan: It's Been a Long Road

[smart dog]

Hi,
Just to add another dimension to this discussion, the Spanish and Portuguese made the best barrels in the world during the 17th and early 18th centuries.  The quality of their iron was unsurpassed at that time.  They made very strong but light barrels and generally used barrel bands that slipped over the stock or underlugs attached to close-fitting bands that were inlet into the barrel channel to secure their barrels.  That way they never had to dovetail the barrel or braze on a lug and risk damaging the barrel.  English gunsmiths that were asked to stock Spanish barrels (a very popular fashion in the 18th century if you could afford it) often made bands that were inlet into the barrel channel.  To have a Spanish barrel used for your hunting gun was a very prestigious thing.

I often wonder how strong a smooth-bored barrel has to be beyond the breech area?  Probably a good question for  Don G.

dave

[Rasch Chronicles]

Dave,

I bet they were put on red hot so they would shrink to fit. I wonder if they reamed the barrels afterwards, just in case the bands constricted the bore....

Best Regards,
Albert “Afghanus” Rasch
Albert A Rasch In Afghanistan

[smart dog]

Hi Albert,
No, I think the bands were probably just soft iron hammered and filed into shape.  On some I have seen the metal is quite thin so it would probably bend to shape very easily.  It seems like a pretty dandy way of securing the barrel if you don't mind the metal band showing around the barrel.

dave

[frogwalking]

Albert,

I am an amateur gunsmith at best, but I have found it fairly easy to soft solder tennons and the front sight onto a fowler barrel.  I got my solder, flux and soapstone (which minimizes the solder from going where you don't want it) from Brownell.  I only used the soapstone on the front sight, but you may be more careful than I am.  As someone mentioned, plain old plumbers solder would also work fine.  If you get a good connection, it won't break. 

I filed groooves in the business end of this welding clamp and it works grandly to ensure the solder joints are tight.  I have seen some very nice clamps made by smiths on this site, but this works for me and was quick and free (I found the clamp on the road.)

[Rasch Chronicles]

Fellows,

Thanks Mr Person, always good to know stuff! If the bands were bordered, it might be an interesting look.

FrogWalker, great idea. When I have to solder things together that might move, I tin both sides first. I clamp it just as you have with in order to have compressive tension on the parts to be joined. Then I bring it up to temp, and wait for the solder to melt. A little touch of solder, and if it needed it, it wicks right in. I've been trying to remember what kept solder from sticking, and graphite came to mind I forgot about the soapstone!

Best Regards,
Albert “Afghanus” Rasch
Dealing with Islamic Extremism “Chronicles” Style