powder chamber on breech plugs

[camerl2009]

ok TOW has double flint breech plugs but what i dont get is the powder chambers drilled in them 

[Dave B]

Those are Nock style patent breaches They have a hole (powder chamber)that is drilled back to where the touch hole will access the charge quicker due to the recess cut into the side of the plug. Some breaches(None recessed) were cross drilled and a powder chamber was formed by this cross hole. The main charge was ignited by a hole drilled from a cupped hole in the breach face back to this powder chamber.

[camerl2009]

Those are Nock style patent breaches They have a hole (powder chamber)that is drilled back to where the touch hole will access the charge quicker due to the recess cut into the side of the plug. Some breaches(None recessed) were cross drilled and a powder chamber was formed by this cross hole. The main charge was ignited by a hole drilled from a cupped hole in the breach face back to this powder chamber.

so drill the touch hole through the breech plug there's no holes i know nothing about these breech plugs

[Dphariss]

ok TOW has double flint breech plugs but what i dont get is the powder chambers drilled in them 

How else are you going to make them?
You need to do more research and actually get some understanding of how things were done in the 18th and 19th Century. If you save people here a lot of typing.
These are two methods of breeching used by the British. To the right, figure XXXI is the Nock patent antechambered breech.


I sometimes breech guns in this manner and have found it very satisfactory. It also is a way to repair sloppily breeched barrels without cutting them off.


I have also made the Nock breech for the Manton patent recessed breech lock.


There were two reasons for the recessed breech. One was to move the priming closer to the center of the barrel and the second was to make double barreled guns narrower though the lock area. It was used in rifles and pistols both double and single barrels as well as shotguns. But very few are seen on American guns though Simeon North used some on pistols.


Dan

[camerl2009]

i googled it and cant seam to under stand how there is a bolt in the middel of the double guns or how the $#*! it gets
there i cant get the pic to work form me

[Acer Saccharum]

This sstyle is a pain in the axe to clean, unless you remove the barrel every time. I don't see the difference in this and a flat faced breech as far as speed goes, but only Larry Pletcher would know fo' sho'.


I built a gun with this breech, and it did shoot clean all day long. But faster? I don't think so, not when compared to a well made flat breeched gun.

[camerl2009]

This sstyle is a pain in the axe to clean, unless you remove the barrel every time. I don't see the difference in this and a flat faced breech as far as speed goes, but only Larry Pletcher would know fo' sho'.


I built a gun with this breech, and it did shoot clean all day long. But faster? I don't think so, not when compared to a well made flat breeched gun.

imtalking doubles TOW is the only place that has them and the plugs are this type
the bolt going trough both plugs is that needed i know i single barrel guns its for cleaning

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Cam, I don't understand your question.  But here are some images to work with.  The first is TOW's flint breeches.  The next two are from an original Staudenmayer double flint gun, illustrating how the plugs are machined.

They are cupped in the front end of the threaded journal, and a small hole runs back to intercept the vent.

[dough]

Cam

You really need a copy of Bill Brockway's book Recreating the Double Barrel Muzzle-Loading Shotgun. It  describes the breech plug construction in detail plus a myriad  of other things relevant to construction of a double. I looked for YEARS to find a used copy. Finally it was reprinted about 2003 by Shumway.

Taylor's photo shows how the two plugs relate.

In addition to the standing breech/ plug combo you found at TOW, the Rifle Shoppe used to carry at least one standing breech /plug set from a Manton flint double. Perhaps they still do.

For the TOW set you would have to fabricate a top rib to match the barrels to place between the two plugs once the barrels are breeched.

Another factor to consider is that any prefab standing breech/ plug combination is going to have a set distance between the hooks of the plugs. Unless you join your  own barrels, this could be a problem requiring reworking of the standing breech if the center to center distance of the barrel set you have is different.

Finally consider that the TOW breech set is not in stock and is not likely to be for several months according to my recent communication with them.

[T*O*F]

the bolt going trough both plugs is that needed

Cam,
There are no bolts that go thru any plugs.  You need to study up on your terminology a bit.  With the exception of the touch hole liners, any threaded inserts found in breeches are there to fill holes made during the manufacture of the breeches.  None are there for cleaning purposes.

[camerl2009]

the bolt going trough both plugs is that needed

Cam,
There are no bolts that go thru any plugs.  You need to study up on your terminology a bit.  With the exception of the touch hole liners, any threaded inserts found in breeches are there to fill holes made during the manufacture of the breeches.  None are there for cleaning purposes.

like i said its a thereded rod but im on the right track now

[Ted Kramer]

I have a set of plugs and the standing breech nearly identical to the Staudenmayer breeches  D. Taylor Sapergia shows in his photo but with a longer threaded portion, no doubt for use with modern chambered barrels. They look like they've been fitted to barrels but no vent holes were ever drilled/tapped. They were in a box of m/l parts I bought on a sale long ago. Doubt I'll ever use them. I see if I can get a good digital photo and post it here.
Ted K.

[Dphariss]

This sstyle is a pain in the axe to clean, unless you remove the barrel every time. I don't see the difference in this and a flat faced breech as far as speed goes, but only Larry Pletcher would know fo' sho'.


I built a gun with this breech, and it did shoot clean all day long. But faster? I don't think so, not when compared to a well made flat breeched gun.

I have these in a swivel and they are not that difficult to clean.
I sent a selection of breeches to Larry Pletcher and the tests show the plain flat breech was the fastest compared to the Nock,  the same flat breech with a 1/2 hemispherical "cup". However, it would be interesting to try with full length barrel and see which gets the shot out the muzzle first. The Nock was supposed to light the main charge better and in Larry's tests was the most consistent, the cup breech seems to make better velocity than a flat in the same barrel.  The Nock consistency is something that I had noticed in shooting my Nock breeched rifle which was in service for 2 years before Larry's test. The consistency would be important when wing shooting where lead is important.
This said my next swivel will have plain breeches but its a 40 caliber and has more wall thickness than the 50 would have had with a plain breeches.
Dan

[Dphariss]

i googled it and cant seam to under stand how there is a bolt in the middel of the double guns or how the $#*! it gets
there i cant get the pic to work form me

The breeches are completely made before they are installed in the barrels. The drilled though holes.... These were needed because of the way the vents were made.
The holes were then plugged with a screw.
It was not necessary to remove this plug unless the breeches were being "rebushed", new vents installed.
Without a basic understanding of how the breeches are fitted to a double I can see the confusion.
Taylor's pictures should be and aid.

Dan

[Cody Tetachuk]

A few things to consider. If you choose to use pre-made breech plugs, they will have to be fitted to the barrels before the barrels are joined. It would be all but impossible to index the plugs to barrels that are joined already. Recessed breeches (should you choose) require a different lock than flat breeches and the only commercial source is places like Blackley, Dyson, TRS and only as casting sets so they require assembling and, in some cases, you will need to make some of your own parts. Commercial locks CAN be used but their design limitations make them a poor choice for recessed breeches. If you are not interested in making your locks, a shotgun in 20g or smaller with tapered breeches and commercial locks would be a wise consideration. L&R's little "manton" locks (TOTW calls them "Bailes") are an excellent choice in this case. Even with recessed breeches I would not recommend going over 16g. 20g is still better.

[Dphariss]

A few things to consider. If you choose to use pre-made breech plugs, they will have to be fitted to the barrels before the barrels are joined. It would be all but impossible to index the plugs to barrels that are joined already. Recessed breeches (should you choose) require a different lock than flat breeches and the only commercial source is places like Blackley, Dyson, TRS and only as casting sets so they require assembling and, in some cases, you will need to make some of your own parts. Commercial locks CAN be used but their design limitations make them a poor choice for recessed breeches. If you are not interested in making your locks, a shotgun in 20g or smaller with tapered breeches and commercial locks would be a wise consideration. L&R's little "manton" locks (TOTW calls them "Bailes") are an excellent choice in this case. Even with recessed breeches I would not recommend going over 16g. 20g is still better.

Exactly on all counts.
Historically the breeches and barrels were assembled and proved (at least where there were proof laws) before joining. Joining the barrels then having one fail in proof would destroy a lot of parts & labor.

Dan

[dough]

If you choose to use pre-made breech plugs, they will have to be fitted to the barrels before the barrels are joined. It would be all but impossible to index the plugs to barrels that are joined already.

Please feel free to set me straight on this but here's how I'd try to do it:

1) After loping off the  breech end of the barrels to appropriate length I'd measure the distance to the forcing cone where the plugs are to butt and do the longer one first, remove it and then file fit the shorter one.
2) The plugs from TOW appear to be slightly oversize and  round. See  images in Taylor's post. Depending upon how flat the barrels are where they are joined at the breech the plugs may have to be brought down  slightly below barrel diameter and then individually installed.
3) the barrel breeches would  then have to be filed to the same diameter of the plugs.
4) a short rib would have to be fit to the gap between the plugs and file fit to the top rib of the barrel breech and the standing breech.
5) The standing breech openings for the lugs might have to be opened on the outside or inside depending on how our barrels center to center dimension compared with that of the standing breech/plugs center to center.
6) I'd probably not use pre-made plugs myself but I think it could be done...

[Cody Tetachuk]

and do the longer one first, remove it and then file fit the shorter one.

Please clarify "longer one" and "shorter one"

[camerl2009]

hmmm now how would thay work on a double rifle with octagon barrels

[Rasch Chronicles]

Hey fellows!

I got to thinking again while reading this thread, (I know, I know, thinking again...) is there a reason why the charge is lit from behind? Is it the architecture that forces the vent position? That probably explains it. I would venture to guess that if the BP charge was fired off from the front, it mioght work out better. I remember reading about some experiments done, where they found that (smokeless) powder was more consistant if ignited from the front. Of course that's a propellant, not an explosive... I wonder...

Best Regards,
Albert “Afghanus” Rasch
Albert A Rasch In Afghanistan

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Cam, barrels for a double, whether rifle or shotgun, are soldered together at the breech, often with hard solder (silver).  The plugs must be removable, as you will do this many times during the making of the gun.  Those breeches filed octagonal and installed in your barrel pair, would be impossible to remove.
Cody, using Brockway's method of breeching a pair of shotgun barrels, one plug is made a longer in the section that receives the vent, than the other.  The short one, which is oversized in this section, is screwed into the first barrel, and then the other one is screwed in until it contacts the first - then you scribe the first one with the larger disc, and cut away all the extra steel down to that scribe line, so that the second plug can pass it until it bottoms against the barrel.  From the extra metal of the first plug, you file the rib to match the barrels' rib.  He illustrates this well in his book.  The extra length of the second plug allows you to use a pipe wrench to turn it in, without bumping the first plug.

Cam, making a double gun is a huge undertaking, that requires a lot of skill, knowledge,  and experience.  Without sounding mean, I don't think you're ready for it.

[dough]

Please clarify "longer one" and "shorter one"

I'm assuming that when you cut the breech ends of the joined barrels off that the forcing cones up against which the breech plugs will butt might not be the same distance from the breech ends of the barrels. By seating the longer first if you make a mistake and go past where you should you still have the other plug without having to recut or significantly file the barrel breech. As I said this isn't the way I would prefer to do this....

EDIT: The above applies only to all round breech plugs which would be interchangeable not the ones available from TOW which have a recess cut out.  Don't know what I was thinking. I don't think it alters whether it could be done but as Taylor describes above Brockway's plugs are better and offer significant advantage over pre-made.

hmmm now how would thay work on a double rifle with octagon barrels

Since you have to be able to turn one plug with the other in there if you brazed the facing flats of octagon barrels directly together without a shim you wouldn't be able to turn  octagonal shaped breech plugs of the same size. Round ones of a size that would turn would probably look funny IMHO.

OOPs, Taylor posted while I was typing.

[camerl2009]

Cam, barrels for a double, whether rifle or shotgun, are soldered together at the breech, often with hard solder (silver).  The plugs must be removable, as you will do this many times during the making of the gun.  Those breeches filed octagonal and installed in your barrel pair, would be impossible to remove.
Cody, using Brockway's method of breeching a pair of shotgun barrels, one plug is made a longer in the section that receives the vent, than the other.  The short one, which is oversized in this section, is screwed into the first barrel, and then the other one is screwed in until it contacts the first - then you scribe the first one with the larger disc, and cut away all the extra steel down to that scribe line, so that the second plug can pass it until it bottoms against the barrel.  From the extra metal of the first plug, you file the rib to match the barrels' rib.  He illustrates this well in his book.  The extra length of the second plug allows you to use a pipe wrench to turn it in, without bumping the first plug.

Cam, making a double gun is a huge undertaking, that requires a lot of skill, knowledge,  and experience.  Without sounding mean, I don't think you're ready for it.

ya i think i'll stick to the fowler for now

[Cody Tetachuk]

Cody, using Brockway's method of breeching a pair of shotgun barrels, one plug is made a longer in the section that receives the vent, than the other.  The short one, which is oversized in this section, is screwed into the first barrel, and then the other one is screwed in until it contacts the first - then you scribe the first one with the larger disc, and cut away all the extra steel down to that scribe line, so that the second plug can pass it until it bottoms against the barrel.  From the extra metal of the first plug, you file the rib to match the barrels' rib.  He illustrates this well in his book.  The extra length of the second plug allows you to use a pipe wrench to turn it in, without bumping the first plug.

Yes, (I recall seeing a tutorial on that somwehere ) but the statement "After loping off the  breech end of the barrels to appropriate length I'd measure the distance to the forcing cone where the plugs are to butt and do the longer one first, remove it and then file fit the shorter one." was in response to my statement "If you choose to use pre-made breech plugs, they will have to be fitted to the barrels before the barrels are joined." I failed to see a difference in length in the pre-made breech plugs sold by TOTW as shown in a previous post.

[Robby]

Camerl, If you are putting together two smooth bored or rifled barrels without a forcing cone, you can use two hook breech plugs made from bolts, and a standing breech from angle iron. Oh, and a lot of filing.
Robby
http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh217/robin101st/IM000523.jpg