Pictures of the holster pistol for the 2011 gunsmithing course

[Rolf]

Ron Scott sent me pictures of the holster pistol they are going to copy at the gunsmithing course. He said I could post them here if I wanted.
The pistol is a real beauty. The material cost for the project is ca. $ 310. Now that's a a real steal!!!!!!! I'm sorely tempted, but wife will strangle me if I acquire more projects without finishing some of the ones Ive started.

Best regards
Rolfkt

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Very very nice!

[Jim Kibler]

A really cool pair of pistols.  Anyone take a guess as to where it might have been made?  I'll stick my neck out and say Liege Belgium say around 1725-1730.  

[Jim Kibler]

Rolfkt,

If you're able to attend the seminar I'm sure you won't regret it.  You will learn more than you can imagine.  Especially since it seems you are so isolated from much of this stuff.

Jim

[Acer Saccharum]

Those pistols have such fine 'forward motion'. No fat, no bulges. Very interesting project.


Rolfkt, you thinking of going?

[Dave W]

Will a set of components be produced from this pair of pistols?  If so, I want at least one to build!

Dave W

[smart dog]

Hi Jim,
I am going to guess - German, Czech, or Austrian about 1730-1750.

dave

[Jim Kibler]

I'm going to revise my date of manufacture to somewhere around 1730 - 1740.  I've found some pictures of another pistol for comparison.  I'll post them and some thoughts when I get a chance.

[Ron Scott]

Good Morning,
I had the barrel out of one of the pistols yesterday while taking dimensions for reproduction. There are absolutely no markings on the barrel to help place the origin. I too, had thought that Belgium might be a logical choice of estimates, maybe mid century. 

I just sent fourteen sets of waxs to the foundry to  be cast in soft brass.Lock and trigger waxs should be ready in a few days.  There should be some extra sets for sale after class use. Ed Rayl  can make up the barrels in 55 cal smooth (original is 56 cal) or 52 rifled.

[Rolf]

Acer, Jim, I'd love to go but the planetickets alone from Norway would be close to $1000. My wife would kill me.

Best regards

Rolfkt

[Jim Kibler]

Hey guys,

Ok, here is a pistol by Claude Niquet for comparison.  http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm52.pl?db=&f=ZAEHLER&c=6360&t=temartic_a_GB&co=3107  Most significant in my view is the but cap.  Not identical, but quite similar in style and execution.  Claude Niequet worked probably from around 1715 to around 1760 or so.  I wouldn't conclude these pistols Ron has are necessarily by Niquet, but rather the similarities suggest a similar region and period of manufacture. 

In general, here is what made me think they were made in Belgium:

Heavy reliance of stands of arms etc. in the decoration.

Heavily decorated guilt hardware.  Well designed decoration, but not necessarily with the same degree of sophistication found in French work for example.  This is a hard element to put to words, but if you look at enough Liege work, you will get the feel. 

Tang with substantial sighting groove.

Lock design is generally conistent with other flat faced lock produced in Liege durging this time period.

Carving generally consistent with other work from this area.

It's important to note, that none of these details alone would necessarily indicate Liege manufacture, but as a group they make a pretty good case.

[brobb]

Can anyone tell me about the flashpan in the pistol photos linked by Jim Kibler?  It appears as if a part of the pan may interfere with the touchhole.  If you look you can see what appears to be an edge between the barrel and the open side of the pan.  I have never seen a set up like this.  How does it work?  Why did the maker do this?  Are there any others?  Thanks

Bruce Robb

[Jim Kibler]

I would assume there is a hole through this material to provide access to the touch hole.  My guess is this was done in an attempt to further waterproof the pan.  This method would provide a tighter seal at the back of the frizzen cover.  A raised lip is present surrounding the pan, suggesting a concern with water in the lock design.

[Ron Scott]

Thanks you for listing the Photo source on the Belgium pistol, Jim.  This Auctioned Pistol is carved with more sophistication but the stock form and mounts are very similar.

[smart dog]

Hi Jim,
I think you probably are right.  The butt cap design is pretty compelling evidence particularly because the gun trade in Liege often used mass produced hardware with frequently repeated designs.  The trigger guard is also very French which suggests Liege.  My guess of a Czech or Germanic origin comes from the shape of the stock and lock but also because of the lack of any proof marks, something that was common on guns made in Karlsbad.  They also exported many guns without markings and used quantity-produced parts.  I am curious why there is no Liege proof mark on the bottom of the barrel.  The monument mark was introduced in the late 17th century and I thought all guns (even for export) were required to have the proof.  Then again, perhaps not since they often fraudulantly marked their guns "Paris" or "London".

dave

[Z. Buck]

all i know is that i need a set of lock castings what is the size of the lock? big enough for a jeager?

[Jim Kibler]

all i know is that i need a set of lock castings what is the size of the lock? big enough for a jeager?

I'm not sure of the exact size, but it looks pretty small for a rifle.  If you care to check, you can scale it based on the barrel length.  I'm pretty sure Ron gave the barrel length in the gunsmithing seminar class description posted recently.  Locks on European pistols seem to be scaled down slightly as compared to those from rifles and fowling pieces.

[Ron Scott]

I'll try to remember to check the lock plate size.  My impression is that it is similar in size to the Caspar Zellner lock (TRS). The Zellner rifle has a normal  size Jaeger Barrel, so  the lock on it might seem small.  I think the key to making a smaller lock work, is getting it placed correctly and keeping the lock panels narrow. This helps keep your eye from registering the fact that the lock is petite.

[smart dog]

Hi Ron,
You also would never be able to give the pistol the elegant shape this one has with a larger lock because the bigger lockplate would force you to extend the handle further backward from the breech before angling it down dramatically.  Many modern-made pistols with small rifle locks look clumsy to me because of that constraint.

dave

[Ron Scott]

I measured the lock plate (original) today. The overall length is 5 15/16 inches and 15/16 tall.