Hawken trigger guard fastenings

[mountainman70]

Hi Friends,it's time to open the hawken can-o-worms,again.I have been looking at a lot of pictures in various books on the subject,Dinglehoffer Baird and others,and I am in the process of building a f/s flint hawken as a get back into it project.
I have noticed,on these newer parts,that the front of t- guard has a stud for threading into trigger plate,and the rear scroll is fastened by a screw down from inside t-plate.I'm good with that.
On my 1960's vintage Hawken,the guard is silver brazed on both ends,and in the old ads for parts,the front of guard has no cast in stud.
Also,on most of the pics of origionals,the rear screw,if there is one,is not visable.
On most of the new made copies,custom,etc,the rear screw threads are visable,some more than others.I really enjoy the conversation this subject fires up,
and as i am somewhat of an instigator meself,what thinkest ye?
Merry Christmas to y'all,from my lodge to yours,Dave - RedBear

[smylee grouch]

If the rear screw threads a visable on one gun, that does not mean they have to be on yours, also you can put the threaded stud on front your self if you want and if your present gaurd does not have one.   Gary

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Back in the 60's authentic parts for Hawken rifles, or any others for that matter, were few and far between.  So we made our own out of old shotgun guards or what have you.  Now-a-days, even with so much available, I still find that I have to tweek parts to make them suitable for a particular build.  For example, on the current build, a S. Hawken it turns out, the commercial guard is good, but the bow is too short fore and aft.  So I clamped my cross peen hammer in the vise, heated the bow red, and hammered it out to lengthen it.  I was able to add almost 3/16" of length to the bow, which was too heavy through the bow anyway.  Now I'm happy.
Likewise, I have a set of Ron Long triggers for the project, but because I'm using a Bob Roller lock where the sear bar is right about the middle of the plate rather than close to the bottom, both triggers are not tall enough to contact the sear bar.  So I was able to add metal to the front trigger, but the back one I didn't like at all - the curve is too quick, it isn't big enough, and sits at the wrong angle.  So I filed out a new one from a piece of annealed file steel 5/16" thick.  Now, I'm happy.
So, all that boils down to this:  you don't have to be satisfied with commercial offerings.  You can alter them a great deal to suit a particular build.

[Ky-Flinter]

Dave,

On my recently completed Plains rifle I used a Hawken style trigger and guard assembly by Dru Hedgecock.  The front TG attachment is a smooth round stud that is pinned thru the trigger bar and the rear is held by a screw from the inside.  I left a little of the threads showing.

In Hawken Rifles by John Baird, there are several original Hawken's pictured that clearly show the rear screw threads poking thru.  See plate 40, of a FS J&S Hawken.  See also plates 64, 67, 74, 109, 118.  There are just as many where the threads do not come thru.  It is interesting to note that plates 64, 67, 74, 109, 118 were all made by Sam.  I wonder if Sam left it and Jake filed it off?  Where is Don Stith when you need him?

Plate 77 shows several drawings of the guard on the Kit Carson Hawken.  The threaded front stud is clear.

With all that said, I agree with Gary....  it's your gun, what do you like best?

-Ron

[Herb]

MM70, anyone who thinks they know what A HAWKEN  looks like just hasn't seen enough of them.  I was at Jim Gordon's Glorieta, NM museum in August and looked at a couple dozen originals, as well as at the Davis Gun Museum in Claremore, OK and The Museum of the Fur Trade at Chadron, NE.  Here are some of Jim's:  (don't bother to Google him, he is not into computers- but do a search on here for "Great Gunmakers for the Early West" by Jim Gordon.


I have Jim's three-book set, and just looked at photos of 35 original Hawkens in his book, Volume III, Western U.S.  The first fullstock has the Pennsylvania style brass trigger guard, butt plate and side plate. (This rifle is in the Buffalo Bill Historical Center at Cody, WY).  Can't tell if the rear tang is screwed or pinned thru a tab.  One is soldered onto the rear TG (I guess).  This rifle, also in the BBHC, has a brass spurred TG with the rear loop bent back, up and forward to be flat to the TG.  It also has a brass BP, Patch box, sideplate washer, key escutcheons, and the nose cap also looks brass.  Stamped S. Hawken, St. Louis.  (That ought to blow a few Hawken experts out of the water.)

As best as I can see the photos, 20 rifles have the rear TG loop screwed to the plate, including Tom Tobin's, Kit Carson's and Jim Bridger's rifles. 

On 7 I can't tell, including Liver Eating Johnson's rifle.  One is a pistol grip (with a tang peep sight- there go a few more experts!)  Five are sporting rifles, and there anything goes.
There is one thing every single one of the Hawkens have, except for the Pistol Grip and one of the Sporting Rifles with a pinned rear trigger guard tab, and that is that the rear trigger plate (or trigger guard sporting rifles) has a wood screw holding the plate or guard.  Even the looped and soldered (?) rifle at the BBHC.

If the front trigger guard doesn't have a stud to fit up into the trigger plate (but most do, most of them are threaded, but I had a couple that were not threaded, had to cut my own threads), you can do one of three things:  solder it on (I have not seen this), or drill a hole from the plate down into the guard bow and tap that and fit a 10x32 countersunk flathead bolt from the top down, or solder a 1/4 x 28 or 10x32 or whatever bolt stub on top of the bow and screw it up into the trigger plate.  I like to time the threads so when I screw the TG into the plate, it just comes up tight and aligned.  I in no way think I am a Hawken expert, but like to pass on what facts I can.

[mountainman70]

This is getting good,like I knew it wood.I also noticed in Hawken rifles-JDB-that it appears some of em have a shotgun style guard,with fancy front and rear finials.I have an old guard with a scroll that looks like some of them.
Thanks for the info,keep it coming if'n ye 'ont too.Thanks,Dave

[A.Merrill]

    Just can't help but love those Hawken guns.    AL

[mountainman70]

You all know,seems funny to me,I dont believe any other m/l gun from any other period in time invokes as much passion,discussion,and all around camaradarie as ol Jake n Sams best.Dave

[smylee grouch]

While we are on the suject. There are some experts claiming that the Hawkens had all the screw slots lined up for and aft, but when I view the picks and the guns that I have seen in person I dont see that. Alot of the screw slots dont line up as mentioned. I am not saying that you couldnt do it if you wanted to though. Just an observation.    Gary

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

You cannot make such a broad observation based on what is available for study today.  No one can say who has altered such things in their long history.  I very much enjoy discussing Hawken rifles, and appreciate the vast knowledge that you folks share so freely.

[mountainman70]

I will Amen that thought.This is the most interesting site I have found since learning how to get online in the winter of 2004.I am gonna make a sorta suggestion-gather all the Hawken info and discussions in one place,and print a book.I cant tell y'all how many late nights I have enjoyed the exchanges on here.Best Wishes to all.Dave

[mountainman70]

BTW,Herb,thanks for those great pics.I wish I had been involved in this project when I was OTR driving back in mid 90's.I could have routed myself to those museums.But this is good.

[A.Merrill]

    Over time wood will shrink and screws must be tightened.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Taylor, I guess you could say the days of gunsmiths secrets are over.    AL  

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I just spent a few minutes checking out pictures of Hawken rifles, and one definitely gets the impression that there was a great attempt to align the tang screws, the butt plate screws, and the escutcheon plate screws with the bore.  So I do the same.  How can it be wrong?  Also, these screws are all dressed off smoothly with the surface beneath, and none are below the surface, ie:  countersunk too deeply.

[Herb]

MM70, I don't know how far you are into your fullstock flint Hawken project, but I have built two and learned about hooked flint breech plugs the hard way if you aren't already committed to one style.

[Dphariss]

The "American" ML rifle of the 18th and 19th century or even to this day is not a cookie cutter rifle.
The St Louis  Hawken rifles were stocked by several different people at different times over decades.
The furniture varies. There are "Mountain Rifles" and then there are others that are not.
The J&S rifle in the August 1998 Muzzle Blasts while having iron BP, TG and I think upper rod pipes, it has German Silver for the entry pipe, forend cap and escutcheons. It has a short forend with one key and a checkered wrist. It has a 49 caliber 30" barrel with a good scroll patent breech but its not a hook breech.  It was purchased and likely special ordered by a resident of VA who traveled to St Louis to get it (family history) or at least ordered it while in St Louis and then took it home. Aside from the noted variations its a typical scroll guard  1840 J&S Hawken in extremely nice condition.

There is at least one  Hawken "Mountain Rifle" with a  SS trigger.
They were made as the customer wanted and were made of what parts were available, in the shop or out when they were made.
So its possible for people to make all sorts of variations and still be correct. So people have to ask what Hawken do you want? Typical? Atypical? A J&S with a slight curve to the comb line? A J&S like the one described above with a straight comb line (I suspect that Sam stocked it but thats just me).
My favorite belongs to the MT Historical Society (or did) but I don't know which Museum its in. I hope they did not decide to sell it off since they have the Bridger Hawken (late S Hawken) to display.
The real beauty of the "classic" Hawken design is in its long tang and long trigger bar/TG assembly with the two tang screws. It is the ultimate ML hunting rifle IMO in terms of durability, the reason it was made this way. This design is far more horse wreck proof than anything that lacks these features.

Dan

[smylee grouch]

After reading Taylors post about screw slots I checked out a few books of my own. Hawken Rifles The mountain mans choice and RL Wilsons  The Peacemakers. In those two books I found several photos of the Hawkens with canted screw slots in various areas of the rifles. I too try to align the slots because they look better IMHO that way but my original post was only intended to say that if your slots dont line up you wont be making an incorect replica on that point alone.    Gary

[mountainman70]

Funny you should ask!!!My friend and I finally got the standing breech/hook inlet,and screwed in place.My Lord,what a nightmare.The last m/l rifles I built,in the 80's,had solid tangs.Not planning on doing this excersise in masochism any time soon.Not sayin never,I just dont see the need to remove barrel.In fact,I am planning on pinning barrel in like on Ky rifles.I have never had the need to remove the barrel from my 1979 flint 50 cal,so what?Now,if it is part of the correct way the particular gun is styled,ok.I am planning on doing some changes,so it won't be a "Hawken" but more toward a iron mounted Tenn style with a scroll guard.
By the time i get it done,I may restock it and try to do a better job.I am enjoying this,trouble is the garage/shop is a mite cold right now.Gotta get a good heater in place 'fo long.I have given this rifle the name"BooBoo"and it is a challenge to fix my booboos as I go along.This is my first foray into building since 1987.

[Herb]

More of Jim Gordon's Hawkens.

Closer.


Closer

Mariano Modena's.

[Herb]

This is the Hawken at the Museum of the Fur Trade in Chadron, NE.

The one at the Davis Gun Museum is a .40 Hawken squirrel rifle.

[mountainman70]

Thanks for the pics,Herb.I let my gunbuilder friend read some of these today,he built a Hawken in the 60's and hand forged most of the parts.he really likes this site.If I could get him to get online with his computer,he probably would nt get any sleep at all. Dave

[fm tim]

In 1996, Hershel House visited with Hawken Collector Art Ressel in St Louis (Mr Ressel is also mentioned by J. Baird in his book about Hawken Rifles) as research for his video on building a Hawken rifle.
In that video, Mr. Ressel noted the alignment of screw heads as one of the characteristics of original Hawken rifles along with the half moon of solder in the front of the rib, the beavertail cheekpiece, the iron furniture, the lock area being wider in the front of the rifle than in the rear, the butt plate size and a number of other characteristics.

[mountainman70]

While we are thinking Hawken,my ol 1960's vintage custom hawken has a red grease like substance under the barrel,in the area of the lock.I read some where that it was common? practice to do this ,what do you guys know?Thanks,Dave

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I don't know what the grease would be for.  The beauty of a hooked breech is the ease of removing the barrel for cleaning.  There should be no gap between the lock plate and the side flat of the barrel, for fouling to get into the barrel channel.  And the barrel doesn't require lubrication. So I cannot offer a reason for the grease.

[Dphariss]

While we are thinking Hawken,my ol 1960's vintage custom hawken has a red grease like substance under the barrel,in the area of the lock.I read some where that it was common? practice to do this ,what do you guys know?Thanks,Dave

Never heard of it. But a lot of strange things are done to MLs.

Dan