Author Topic: to age or not??  (Read 10203 times)

omark

  • Guest
to age or not??
« on: December 24, 2010, 03:16:24 AM »
started a new post on this to not hijack another thread more than it has been.  my ideas on aging rifles, etc. if "in personna", and wanting to represent a gentleman hunter or new on the frontier, you may well want to have a new rifle. on the other hand, if you have been on the frontier hunting, running from indians etc, for maybe decades (some of us are old enough to pass that off successfully) you may want an aged rifle. there other scenarios possible for each side of the fence.  however if you just want a traditional rifle for hunting now a days, get what ever flips your pancake.    jmho   mark

chiefs50

  • Guest
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2010, 03:21:23 AM »
Well put.  Perhaps too, there are some who enjoy making their new weapon look like a 300 year old antique.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12642
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2010, 03:25:54 AM »
I feel responsible for undermining the other thread, and for that, I apologize.  The fact is that many of you do a fabulous job of making a new item with all the character and charm of a relic, or perhaps a long carried and well used item - rifle, fowler, knife, bag or what have you.  I've never attempted it and maybe that is what is so distressing to me.
I really like the job that Louis Parker did on the Hawken copy he made...perhaps I'll give it a go on the S. Hawken rifle that's currently on my bench.  It's for me, so I don't have anyone to answer to. If I decide to go that way, I'll be picking brains, so, be advised.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline David Rase

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4311
  • If we need it here, make it here. Charlie Daniels
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2010, 05:18:23 AM »
Anyone can boil their metal parts in Clorox, but if you don't study the old guns that is exactly what they look like, boiled in Clorox.   If you are going to age a gun you need to distress the wood as well as the metal.  They need to be in harmony.  Nothing looks worse then a brand spanking new stock with a bunch of aged metal.  Nothing looks more fake then a barrel that has been pitted evenly its entire length.  There are areas on a barrel where the fouling built up, pits started to form and sharp corners started to round from handling.  The antiques did not wear  evenly.   You need to know what areas of a rifle wear and how.  If you use your gun regularly it will obtain its own patina in about 3 years and it will be honest wear. 
DMR   

Rasch Chronicles

  • Guest
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2010, 06:05:39 AM »
You know,

I got to thinking about the subject as I wondered if the Afghan National Air Farce clowns would ever learn how to drive. They almost sideswiped my up-armored truck. That would have certainly added character and patina to my truck, but royally *#)*^~ me off at the same time.

I think it is all up to the likes and dislikes of the owner. In some circumstances, it might be inappropriate for some circles or activities. For instance, I want to put a rear sight on my fowler, and it might be out of period. But I must have it in order to take game ethically! I also want to build something with an ebonized stock, slow rust blued barrel and furniture. Beats me if anyone ever did anything like that in the past, but the idea has me intrigued.

Best wishes to all of you from Afghanistan! May you all have the Merriest of Christmas, and the Happiest of New Years!!!

Happy Holidays!
Best Regards,
Albert A Rasch
Albert A Rasch In Afghanistan

Offline KLMoors

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 859
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2010, 03:56:46 PM »
Rasch, Merry Christmas and stay safe.

I personally like all the various looks when combined with good architecture. I can't put it into words, but sometimes a rifle just looks "right" to my eye, and sometimes it doesn't. The finish on it is just that, the finish. It is only one aspect.

Lets remember too that this is clearly just a matter of taste. I would never presume that another man gives a hoot about my opinion on his tastes unless he were to ask me for it.

I worship liberty. As long as another person's actions don't directly effect me, or limit another's fredoms, I deeply respect their right to choose. But, there is no honor in supporting those actions that nobody finds objectionable. The true test of our belief is when we can respect those actions that most may find abhorrent.

  
« Last Edit: December 24, 2010, 07:17:53 PM by Capt. Fred »

Offline Cory Joe Stewart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1860
    • My etsy shop
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2010, 06:32:46 PM »
I am not a gunbuilder, but I hope to give it a try soon.  But I have been making and selling powderhorns since 1994.  Among hornworkers there is also the debate of to age or not to age.  I do put a little patina on horns, and the reason is they sell better.  I do not put scratches or wear the wood down, just knock the white off.  Some who age, age too much, making the horn look older and rougher than origninals actually look, but the customers go for it.

I expect for gunmakers the debate is the same.   To sell or not to sell.

Coryjoe

Offline Pete G.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2011
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2010, 06:51:54 PM »
A little patina is fine, but keep in mind that nobody in the 18th century carried a 200 year old gun. Shoot the rifle, clean it and rub it down and it will develop a natural patina that cannot be duplicated by any artificial means.

Offline Roger Fisher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6805
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2010, 07:07:08 PM »
Anyone can boil their metal parts in Clorox, but if you don't study the old guns that is exactly what they look like, boiled in Clorox.   If you are going to age a gun you need to distress the wood as well as the metal.  They need to be in harmony.  Nothing looks worse then a brand spanking new stock with a bunch of aged metal.  Nothing looks more fake then a barrel that has been pitted evenly its entire length.  There are areas on a barrel where the fouling built up, pits started to form and sharp corners started to round from handling.  The antiques did not wear  evenly.   You need to know what areas of a rifle wear and how.  If you use your gun regularly it will obtain its own patina in about 3 years and it will be honest wear. 
DMR   
So then my ol shooter is getting close after 30+ years of wear.  I wonder sometimes what will last longer that ol rifle or me ::)

Offline KLMoors

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 859
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2010, 07:17:18 PM »
LOL Roger. I wonder that more and more every morning. And I'm only 50! Come to think of it, mabe it is my own pre-mature aging that draws me to those guns. :-\

Offline axelp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1546
    • TomBob Outdoors, LLC.
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2010, 07:32:05 PM »
Just thinking out loud here but... I am willing to bet that many folks in the 18th C carried old guns... Their was much use of surplus old guns--- and the colonys were what? well over 170 years old by that time?... three or four generations of folks that used guns.... So seeing a lot of 50 year old guns around would probably be common. So I do not believe that if Daniel Boone saw a guy carrying a worn, old gun, that he would find that unusual.

I guess the key to this involves contemporary stylings and trends... If you want to carry an old gun and pretend it is 1775, then you would not be carrying a gun that has 1774 styling...
Galations 2:20

northmn

  • Guest
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2010, 07:53:15 PM »
Some of what Ken says is true about carrying an old gun, but I will point out that one dressed in Revolutionay garb carrying a JP Beck that looks 100 years old is not really PC.  In other words the gun should match period of history one is involved with.  Again  its your work and your money so go for it.

DP

Daryl

  • Guest
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2010, 08:00:24 PM »
Ken's point about 'surplus' guns is very well made.  Once the guns were deemed not usable by the military, they were sold to civilians or given to the indians - many in deplorable condition, some not capable of being fired at the time of sale - rifles as well as smoothbores- but these, of course were military guns.

Offline bgf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1403
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2010, 08:13:50 PM »
Aging may not be the right answer, but the problem is that some rifles these days run the risk of looking like they were made by a machine, perhaps the natural result of builders spending far more time on modern long rifles than the original builders possibly could have, with better tools, better lighting, and higher expectations for finish.  I am not knowledgeable enough to characterize explicitly the difference between high-quality handmade and overdone handmade that is near perfection, but it is pretty obvious when I see it.  Yes, rifles in the day were expensive, and to some extent status symbols, but they were first tools, made predominantly by competent craftsmen in the business to support themselves and families, not artists funded by patrons or government.  Aging does break up the over-finished surfaces and maddeningly exact symmetry present on some rifles, which may be another reason it is so popular. 

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19353
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2010, 08:55:09 PM »
It's a matter of taste, no different in my mind than deciding whether to work completely in the vein of original work, or to go beyond period work (I hesitate to use the term "fantasy gun" since the term sounds a little judgmental).  Builders make choices, experiment, follow their own muses.  It's not right or wrong. 
Andover, Vermont

Offline whitebear

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 837
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2010, 10:13:45 PM »


When I was doing ACW reenacting we had to keep reminding the newbies that we were using guns and equipment that represented what was used 130 years ago (at that time) not guns that were 130 years old.  I have seen several rifled muskets that were ruined by aging.  One person shot the but stock of his musket with a 58 minnie out of another persons musket to make it look like a battle field occurrence.  Do I need to tell you what happened? ??? :o

Some of what Ken says is true about carrying an old gun, but I will point out that one dressed in Revolutionay garb carrying a JP Beck that looks 100 years old is not really PC.  In other words the gun should match period of history one is involved with.  Again  its your work and your money so go for it.

DP
In the beginning God...
Georgia - God's vacation spot

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9886
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2010, 11:31:27 PM »
Aging may not be the right answer, but the problem is that some rifles these days run the risk of looking like they were made by a machine, perhaps the natural result of builders spending far more time on modern long rifles than the original builders possibly could have, with better tools, better lighting, and higher expectations for finish.  I am not knowledgeable enough to characterize explicitly the difference between high-quality handmade and overdone handmade that is near perfection, but it is pretty obvious when I see it.  Yes, rifles in the day were expensive, and to some extent status symbols, but they were first tools, made predominantly by competent craftsmen in the business to support themselves and families, not artists funded by patrons or government.  Aging does break up the over-finished surfaces and maddeningly exact symmetry present on some rifles, which may be another reason it is so popular. 

Many original rifles were very well made.
There is no reason to do sloppy work today just because some old rifle looks sloppy NOW.
There are Hawken rifles, for example that are now pretty rough. But these, the mountain rifles anyway, were expensive guns, 2-3 times what some made by Leman etc rifle would cost. The ones that survive in good to near new condition show a high degree of craftsmanship. Good inletting, high quality locks, good stock design and lines etc etc. There are guns of the era that are just as good and others that look like they were made by a farrier when he had nothing better to do.
There are people now that work to a standard, there were people then who worked to a standard. There are people then who did not or could not work to a standard and there are people today in the same class.
There are modern guns out there by highly rated makers that look like $#@*. Why? Because they did not simply say I screwed up and throw the stock away. OR they don't recognize the error or figured someone would buy it anyway. Hard to say.
I have cut up and burnt 3 guns I made as a kid. I should not have in maybe 2 cases anyway but I did not like the workmanship. There are others, at least one is signed that are beyond my reach and I would not destroy them now in any case. I have guns I have made recently that I am not thrilled with and one that I goofed a repair on ::)

I make guns to MY standards. I don't make them to Stophel Smith's standards or to John Armstrong's. I make the best gun I can and I learn all the time.  I doubt I can replicate Armstrong's best work or carve like Bonewitz often did.
Metal fit. Consider that the changing seasons can change the metal fit in many cases. I  moved a Sharps from MT to Sea level and back in a period of 2 years and the fit was loose after a month or two back in the dry air of MT. So a rifle that is 200 years old is unlikely to maintain its wood to metal fit in all areas. So the locks, for example, might be far looser today then when the maker handed it to its new owner.

Then we have RESTOCKED GUNS signed on the barrel by the original maker. Some of these are not too bad, some are nothing like a J Dickert for example, but decent guns with Dickert barrel and hardware in a near Allentown stock layout. Probably made from reclaimed parts from a wrecked gun. Traded in for a serviceable/new rifle or restocked for the owner, no way to know. There are guns with locks replaced, either from wear or from the lock being taken out and lost when the guns was relegated to a kids toy and the parents wanted it disabled. Some of these are more obvious than others and the workmanship varies from a gunsmith carefully putting in a new lock to a collector sticking in something he had handy or found that was "close" of maybe not so close. Then we have "upgrades" done perhaps in the 1920s and 30s to make the gun fit what the collector/new owner wanted or thought was "correct" and/or to make it more valuable.
So when a poorly made gun is encountered especially when some of the work is really classy and some does not quite seem to fit in design or execution one really needs to ask "how come?". Was it all done by the same hand or was the carving or inlays expounded upon at some later date? Was it poorly done restoration of missing parts or enhancement?
Did someone amuse himself with a penknife and did some "background" for the carving in 1880 when the rifle was thought to have no value? The possibilities are nearly endless. Did parts of the back ground subside over the centuries and leave the surface with a  ripple or two?

And PLEASE collectors do not take OFFENSE. We KNOW things were done in the past but when I say "collector" it is not referring to anyone in particular or to  say the practice still being carried out today by anyone who posts or reads here or anyone they know.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13414
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2010, 02:12:02 AM »
A little patina is fine, but keep in mind that nobody in the 18th century carried a 200 year old gun. Shoot the rifle, clean it and rub it down and it will develop a natural patina that cannot be duplicated by any artificial means.
Some of us seem to forget how hard these guns were used on the frontier. A carolina gun in NDN hands was expected to last 2 years. A brown bess' expected life expectancy was 12 to 15 years. Seems to me most guns on the frontier would have had a few lumps and bumps in a very short time.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Gaeckle

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1343
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2010, 02:55:32 AM »
I make guns to MY standards. I don't make them to Stophel Smith's standards or to John Armstrong's. I make the best gun I can and I learn all the time. 

I agree with this statement. I think one needs to develope your "signiture" and that takes time and confidence in your own abilities.

One problem with teaching others do to something is the reluctance to allow them to create their own way of doing things. There are not that many out there that are strong enough in their own abilities and confident in themselves to encourage the groth of others...

Offline Mike T

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2010, 03:25:17 AM »
I love reading and learning from all the great comments from the collective experience on this blog.  I can see the value of both sides of the discussion.  I got tired of browning and ageing guns that I made.  I am retired and not in the business of making my living doing this. it's simply a fun/hobbie adventure.  A few years back I decided to try a S. Hawken rifle decied on the Don Stith Kit Carsen Rifle and bought the parts and plans from Don.  Chose not to go with the walnut but curly maple and not to brown and boil the barrel hardware.  It was going to be my gun and I thought I'd see what happens when it ages on its own.  I can always go back and change it.  Well I haven't yet   It is not as Sam would have done it,  I gained a lot of respect for the Hawken brothers while building this rifle.  They were skilled craftsmen and knew their craft.  What's all this about anyway.  Everyone has their reasons.  We learn from the past sucesses of others and stand on the shoulders of our predessors.  We grab what they left us and adapt as we see fit.  What pleased them should please us.  If you are satisfied with your efforts. who is to question?








« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 04:31:04 AM by ChuckBurrows »
Mike T

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12642
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2010, 03:34:59 AM »
Well Mike, you have done a very credible job on your Hawken rifle.  I appreciate your having posted these images.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Cory Joe Stewart

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1860
    • My etsy shop
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2010, 06:21:26 AM »
Several of you mention the use of old guns, and Mike Brooks brought up the issue of guns being used up.  In my research for my dissertation I went through a lot of estate records for my region.  These people would mostly be themiddling sort.  One thing I ran into a number of times was estates that included "an old gun stock."  The people that owned them were not gun makers, so I am assuming that it was an old gun that had been stripped of parts.  If this is true then you could have a new stock with older metal parts??

Just a thought. 

Also, these estates were from 1771-1774 and the records alwasy specified if it was rifled or smooth, and smooth was usually described as "old".  Which I think shows the transition in preference for these folks. 

Hope I did not stray to far. 

Coryjoe

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9886
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2010, 08:23:56 AM »
Several of you mention the use of old guns, and Mike Brooks brought up the issue of guns being used up.  In my research for my dissertation I went through a lot of estate records for my region.  These people would mostly be themiddling sort.  One thing I ran into a number of times was estates that included "an old gun stock."  The people that owned them were not gun makers, so I am assuming that it was an old gun that had been stripped of parts.  If this is true then you could have a new stock with older metal parts??

Just a thought. 

Also, these estates were from 1771-1774 and the records alwasy specified if it was rifled or smooth, and smooth was usually described as "old".  Which I think shows the transition in preference for these folks. 

Hope I did not stray to far. 

Coryjoe

The rifle was more common in many areas by the 1760s than some would like to admit I think.
The gunstock thing is perplexing and makes one wonder. Not having a context for this makes for ??

Frontier guns did tend to get used up regardless of the era. But I don't think a rifles longevity can be determined by the life span of a trade gun. Though one of the complaints some military officers voiced about American rifles was they they seemed to get out of order more often than the musket.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Ed Wenger

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2457
Re: to age or not??
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2010, 10:07:54 AM »
I tend to feel the way most seem do, that aging is a matter of taste.  I happen to like the look of a gun that has a "well cared for antique" look.  I also think that the use of lamp black on the stock, or the patina on brass, adds contrast and depth, and can be looked upon as a type of style finish. 

Both techniques can, and do result in a beautiful gun.  For example, Taylor's "fresh off the bench" style always results in a beautiful piece.  We've all seen the superb work of Bill Shipman, and his more "mellow, gently aged" style.  Both work very well.

One thing that is consistant with these two examples, is the craftsmanship.  Tight wood to metal finish, outstanding architecture, well prepared and finished metal, carving and engraving execution, all first rate.

Taylor...  I'd love to see you do a piece that has some subtle aging to it.  I have a feeling it would be special...

                  Ed
Ed Wenger